Zwei Adler, Ein Kaiser
- Thread starter Jimbrock
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Here's Part 2, in which many suspicions are confirmed...
The marriage of Frederick ‘Fritz’ of Hohenzollern and Maria Theresa of Habsburg soon sent a wave of suspicion across Europe and west to France. In the eyes of Cardinal Fleury, the chief minister of France, the Habsburgs were growing ever more powerful and needed to be stopped. Soon enough, the perfect occasion came about when August II, King of Poland and Prince-Elector of Saxony, died and France decided to support a friendly candidate to the Polish throne, Stanislaw, conveniently father-in-law of the French King, by encouraging separate and traditionally clashing Polish clans to unite in support of him. On the other hand, August’s son, Frederick August, went to Russia and Austria for support. Also seeing a good opportunity, Frederick of Prussia jumped in and offered Prussia assistance even before notifying his father.
Frederick August decided woo the three potential allies by giving them concessions and an agreement was negotiated in Silesia, at the court of Frederick and Maria Theresa. In the ‘Pact of Breslau’, Frederick August promised to give Warmia and Royal Prussia east of the Vistula up to Ebling, cede claims to Courland to Russia, and promise to recognise the Pragmatic Sanction and also, more importantly, recognise any heirs that Charles VI would care to choose. In return, Prussia, Austria, and Russia would support his claim to the Polish throne and defend him from any enemies who might join the war against him. The scene was soon set for a potentially brutal European war, and as the Bourbons gathered their allies, all eyes rested on the Polish Sejm.
The Sejm did not disappoint, and it was much drama and frustration before Stanislaw was elected King of Poland, to the anger of Prussia, Austria, Russia, and of course Frederick August. After hushed plans being discussed, armies were readied, and the prompt invasion of Poland was quick to follow. The three nations, as well as the supporters of Frederick August, attacked Stanislaw’s supporters wherever possible, and the Prussian armies quickly swarmed the North, with Danzig besieged and blockaded by sea. In the meantime, Austrian armies charged towards Krakow, and Russian forces headed straight for Warsaw. Saxon troops assisted in these offensives, but mostly went west to guard the frontier.
Seeing this, the Bourbons in France and Spain, as well as their Savoyard allies, took their opportunity and declared war upon the ‘Breslau Pact’ nations. Austria called upon its alliance with Britain, but Britain remained neutral on the pretext that Austria had been the aggressor against Poland. But France realised that this neutrality was too unstable for comfort, and so neglected to attack the Austrian Netherlands not to antagonize the Dutch or the British. Instead, their plan focused on pushing quickly to the Rhine, and so they invaded Lorraine, rapidly reaching Strasburg and Kehl.
Further south in Italy, war had also spread like a rot. The French and Savoyards attacked Milan, in the north of the country, while Spain invaded the south. The French and Savoyards very quickly overwhelmed Milan, capturing it after a battle followed by a short siege. Further south, the Spaniards moved south towards Naples from positions in the Papal States, but they did not move as quickly as their northern allies and the Austrians managed to perform a tactical fighting retreat.
In Poland, things had boiled over. Stanislaw himself was captured by Prussian forces as he escaped from the advancing Russian forces in Warsaw, and he was quickly brought in front of a new Sejm which convened to decide the future of Poland. The war had been a pushover, and Frederick August was in a position to demand whatever he wanted. So, he first purged the Sejm of all violent and outspoken supporters of Stanislaw, and then imprisoned him temporarily. Then, citing his ‘agreements’ with the three occupying powers, he demanded that the Sejm elect him King and also ratify the Pact of Breslau. But he knew that when the occupiers left, his power would vanish among Stanislaw’s supporters.
So he decided to make one big change. He demanded that the Sejm also abolish the cherished Liberum Veto, which poisoned and stalled the Polish political system by allowing any member of the Sejm to halt all legislation. This move was hugely opposed, but when Frederick August threatened that if this last reform was not carried out, Poland would remain occupied and divided, the Sejm grudgingly agreed. The number of Sejm members was also decreased, and when the occupying powers were satisfied and began pulling out, Frederick August also dissolved the Sejm and called for new appointments from the nobles of the land, and was crowned King Augustus III. Essentially, as some anti-reformists muttered, a Western European system of a strong King and an elected Parliament was being implemented.
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The marriage of Frederick ‘Fritz’ of Hohenzollern and Maria Theresa of Habsburg soon sent a wave of suspicion across Europe and west to France. In the eyes of Cardinal Fleury, the chief minister of France, the Habsburgs were growing ever more powerful and needed to be stopped. Soon enough, the perfect occasion came about when August II, King of Poland and Prince-Elector of Saxony, died and France decided to support a friendly candidate to the Polish throne, Stanislaw, conveniently father-in-law of the French King, by encouraging separate and traditionally clashing Polish clans to unite in support of him. On the other hand, August’s son, Frederick August, went to Russia and Austria for support. Also seeing a good opportunity, Frederick of Prussia jumped in and offered Prussia assistance even before notifying his father.
Frederick August decided woo the three potential allies by giving them concessions and an agreement was negotiated in Silesia, at the court of Frederick and Maria Theresa. In the ‘Pact of Breslau’, Frederick August promised to give Warmia and Royal Prussia east of the Vistula up to Ebling, cede claims to Courland to Russia, and promise to recognise the Pragmatic Sanction and also, more importantly, recognise any heirs that Charles VI would care to choose. In return, Prussia, Austria, and Russia would support his claim to the Polish throne and defend him from any enemies who might join the war against him. The scene was soon set for a potentially brutal European war, and as the Bourbons gathered their allies, all eyes rested on the Polish Sejm.
The Sejm did not disappoint, and it was much drama and frustration before Stanislaw was elected King of Poland, to the anger of Prussia, Austria, Russia, and of course Frederick August. After hushed plans being discussed, armies were readied, and the prompt invasion of Poland was quick to follow. The three nations, as well as the supporters of Frederick August, attacked Stanislaw’s supporters wherever possible, and the Prussian armies quickly swarmed the North, with Danzig besieged and blockaded by sea. In the meantime, Austrian armies charged towards Krakow, and Russian forces headed straight for Warsaw. Saxon troops assisted in these offensives, but mostly went west to guard the frontier.
Seeing this, the Bourbons in France and Spain, as well as their Savoyard allies, took their opportunity and declared war upon the ‘Breslau Pact’ nations. Austria called upon its alliance with Britain, but Britain remained neutral on the pretext that Austria had been the aggressor against Poland. But France realised that this neutrality was too unstable for comfort, and so neglected to attack the Austrian Netherlands not to antagonize the Dutch or the British. Instead, their plan focused on pushing quickly to the Rhine, and so they invaded Lorraine, rapidly reaching Strasburg and Kehl.
Further south in Italy, war had also spread like a rot. The French and Savoyards attacked Milan, in the north of the country, while Spain invaded the south. The French and Savoyards very quickly overwhelmed Milan, capturing it after a battle followed by a short siege. Further south, the Spaniards moved south towards Naples from positions in the Papal States, but they did not move as quickly as their northern allies and the Austrians managed to perform a tactical fighting retreat.
In Poland, things had boiled over. Stanislaw himself was captured by Prussian forces as he escaped from the advancing Russian forces in Warsaw, and he was quickly brought in front of a new Sejm which convened to decide the future of Poland. The war had been a pushover, and Frederick August was in a position to demand whatever he wanted. So, he first purged the Sejm of all violent and outspoken supporters of Stanislaw, and then imprisoned him temporarily. Then, citing his ‘agreements’ with the three occupying powers, he demanded that the Sejm elect him King and also ratify the Pact of Breslau. But he knew that when the occupiers left, his power would vanish among Stanislaw’s supporters.
So he decided to make one big change. He demanded that the Sejm also abolish the cherished Liberum Veto, which poisoned and stalled the Polish political system by allowing any member of the Sejm to halt all legislation. This move was hugely opposed, but when Frederick August threatened that if this last reform was not carried out, Poland would remain occupied and divided, the Sejm grudgingly agreed. The number of Sejm members was also decreased, and when the occupying powers were satisfied and began pulling out, Frederick August also dissolved the Sejm and called for new appointments from the nobles of the land, and was crowned King Augustus III. Essentially, as some anti-reformists muttered, a Western European system of a strong King and an elected Parliament was being implemented.
Now, with victory cemented very easily and quickly in the East, the ‘Breslau Powers’ as they became known, turned their attention to the west where the Bourbon alliance had easily pressed their gains in the Rhine and Italy. By early 1735, the French had advanced as far as Mainz and the Po, while the Spanish had overtaken Naples but had not yet penetrated into the Italian deep south. But soon the tide would now be turned as the Breslau Powers sent their troops to the west, to reclaim lost territory as well as to teach the Bourbons a lesson they would never forget.
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Susano
Banned
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Theresa_of_Lorraine
The two brothers had two sisters, and that is the older one. In 1723 she isnt married yet, so prospects are open. Wiki says the Duke of Orleans rejected her, maybe ITTL he wont as hed get the Duchy of Lorraine... of course, if she also gets the smallpox... then, the Lorraine-Guise line of Vaudemont, but it dies out in 1723, too... following that the Duke of Melun, husband of the lady in the link, through which inheritance would go. Of course, he only has one surviving child at that time, a daughter, so afterwards the Duchy would again change houses
So, yes, depends on wether Elisabeth Theresa dies of the small pox, too, or not. If not then probably the Duke of Orleans, if yes, the Duke of Melun. Alternatively, the head of whoever was the most senior Guise line at that time could try to claim the Duchy under the French variant of the Salic Law... that would be the Dukes of Elbeuf, hence at that time this guy... actually, that has potential for a war of succession.
Thanks. Frederick already being the supposed head of the family, it is only natural that they would move to a neutral location.
Maybe I will, after the wars are done.
Thanks!
Um... guys?http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Elisabeth_Theresa_of_Lorraine
The two brothers had two sisters, and that is the older one. In 1723 she isnt married yet, so prospects are open. Wiki says the Duke of Orleans rejected her, maybe ITTL he wont as hed get the Duchy of Lorraine... of course, if she also gets the smallpox... then, the Lorraine-Guise line of Vaudemont, but it dies out in 1723, too... following that the Duke of Melun, husband of the lady in the link, through which inheritance would go. Of course, he only has one surviving child at that time, a daughter, so afterwards the Duchy would again change houses
So, yes, depends on wether Elisabeth Theresa dies of the small pox, too, or not. If not then probably the Duke of Orleans, if yes, the Duke of Melun. Alternatively, the head of whoever was the most senior Guise line at that time could try to claim the Duchy under the French variant of the Salic Law... that would be the Dukes of Elbeuf, hence at that time this guy... actually, that has potential for a war of succession.
Charles Alexander says hi.
Susano
Banned
Well, we assumed he had died as well! Because elsewise he would get engaged with Maria Theresa instead of his brother.
Yes, but wouldn't you need to kill him too in order to have Maria Theresa married to someone else? After all, Charles VI seemed very convinced about marrying her to a Lorraine, since when his first candidate Leopold Clement died he simply replaced him by his younger brother Francis, and there is no reason for him not doing it again and choosing Charles ITTL.
If you assume, you make an ass of...
The fact that Charles Alexander was 11 at the time was probably the reason for that. And Frederick. Frederick marrying Maria Theresa is the main PoD, moreso than the smallpox striking Lorraine.
Susano
Banned
Well, Francis was 15. But thats why I said engaged, and not married
Hm, I guess it works, though it needs pelicular timing. Prussias offer would have to come right after Francis' death. Which probably invalidates the fluff text of the intro
How so? Anyway, its just a story meant to introduce the TL, notice that its actually before the title.Which probably invalidates the fluff text of the intro
No other comments about part 2?
Jechzche Polska ni zgynela
This is a really interesting timeline. I am so fascinated that I took the time to do some nitpicking.
First of all: The Austro-Prussian marriage as an "anchor" for the TL is a great idea.
Good job that you didn't shrink away out of our hindsight expectation of their hostility!
But I do have issues with the opening scene.
Such an open conversation between this father and this son seems rather unlikely to me, given their personalities and their relationship.
Moreover, I doubt Maria T. would be among that pile ...
This is of course true in a geographical sense. But how are Prussia and Austria less marginal?
(With respect to position, that is.) Lorraine was one relatively significant territories of the Empire; and most of them lay at its fringes ...
Technically, that would be an Austrian city not too far from Prussia ...
Didn't he even have some ... organic abnormality which made him avoid the whole subject out of shame?
Rather King of Poland and Duke-Elector of Saxony
A general and rather fuzzy concern: Is is realistic that the Saxon heir allies with the great power surrounding him on three sides? (Poland doesn't really count as he hardly had much direct control). Aiming lower and lurking for an opportunity would seem the most likely reaction; though I don't find much unrealistic with him seeking support, as you designed it.
Little note: Did you spend some thoughts on who would lead the Prussian and Austrian armies?
The two countries have little in common but their ruler; so there might by problems with coordination and tactics; big superiority can be debased in that way. Again, I don't see any problems with your course of events
So you assume that Spain keeps to France's side; this is the most likely (though not only) alternative.
Aggressor? Contemporaries would perhaps put it like that: "Friedrich August's claim on the Polish throne was illegitimate (after the Sejm decision)".
Why do you think Milan can be taken after a short siege? (Open question)
Ha, it's hard not to do that in a TL where you still need Poland, right? Eager to hear what will come to pass
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I'm not sure that's so clear by then. Hannover and Bavaria are still in the running I'd say (and Saxony as long as prestige alone is concerned).
At least Prussia may not be seen as such a powerful state: Note that the actual signal of Prussian fierceness to the world was the attack on Austria in the First Silesian War, which is prevented in this TL.
However, I agree that the French king will not be too glad.
Frederich II. of Hesse-Cassel comes to my mind, who caused a whole lot of a fuss even roughly one generation later.
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Sorry for the clustering - I just started reading this thread and won't look in here every day ..
This is a really interesting timeline. I am so fascinated that I took the time to do some nitpicking.
First of all: The Austro-Prussian marriage as an "anchor" for the TL is a great idea.
Good job that you didn't shrink away out of our hindsight expectation of their hostility!
But I do have issues with the opening scene.
Such an open conversation between this father and this son seems rather unlikely to me, given their personalities and their relationship.
Moreover, I doubt Maria T. would be among that pile ...
This is of course true in a geographical sense. But how are Prussia and Austria less marginal?
(With respect to position, that is.) Lorraine was one relatively significant territories of the Empire; and most of them lay at its fringes ...
Technically, that would be an Austrian city not too far from Prussia ...
Didn't he even have some ... organic abnormality which made him avoid the whole subject out of shame?
Rather King of Poland and Duke-Elector of Saxony
A general and rather fuzzy concern: Is is realistic that the Saxon heir allies with the great power surrounding him on three sides? (Poland doesn't really count as he hardly had much direct control). Aiming lower and lurking for an opportunity would seem the most likely reaction; though I don't find much unrealistic with him seeking support, as you designed it.
Little note: Did you spend some thoughts on who would lead the Prussian and Austrian armies?
The two countries have little in common but their ruler; so there might by problems with coordination and tactics; big superiority can be debased in that way. Again, I don't see any problems with your course of events
So you assume that Spain keeps to France's side; this is the most likely (though not only) alternative.
Aggressor? Contemporaries would perhaps put it like that: "Friedrich August's claim on the Polish throne was illegitimate (after the Sejm decision)".
Why do you think Milan can be taken after a short siege? (Open question)
Ha, it's hard not to do that in a TL where you still need Poland, right? Eager to hear what will come to pass
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stevep said:
I'm not sure that's so clear by then. Hannover and Bavaria are still in the running I'd say (and Saxony as long as prestige alone is concerned).
At least Prussia may not be seen as such a powerful state: Note that the actual signal of Prussian fierceness to the world was the attack on Austria in the First Silesian War, which is prevented in this TL.
However, I agree that the French king will not be too glad.
Susano said:
Frederich II. of Hesse-Cassel comes to my mind, who caused a whole lot of a fuss even roughly one generation later.
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Sorry for the clustering - I just started reading this thread and won't look in here every day ..
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Susano
Banned
Because, if there is first much discussion and profile searching
in Prussia, then Maria T. will already have been engaged to Charles Alexander. As said, it would have to go quickly.Err, I thought he simply was flaming gay?
As Ive said before, the Hohenzollern are the best evidence for the existence of the "gay gene"
Prince-Elector
Or if you want to get all technical King of Poland, Grand Prince of Lithuania, Duke of Saxony, Prince-Elector of the Holy Roman Emperor
Uh, didnt Saxony ally with Austria IOTL? Of course, seeing how Saxony was the primary objective of Frederick IIs expansions plans IOTL, if he does act on his own without authorisation from Berlin or Vienna he might attack Saxony instead of helping it. Though thats far from given, of course - as future Prince Consort of Austria he might instead adopt the Austrian position of countering France at every turn. Certainly, Brandenburg had much tradition in that as well, heh.
Of course theres also the fact that Prussia is still ruled by Frederick William, who was absolutely loath to go to war, any war...
Seeing that neither Prussia nor Austria is ruled by the newly wed couple yet, there wont be any joining of institutions like the army for quite some time still, I assume! So there will be two different commands most likely, under the supreme command of whoever has the bigger army - which despite Frederick Williams buildup would I think still be Austria.
Contempoeraries would write whatever their biases tell them Id say
Bavaria is out since the War of the Spanish Succession, and Hannover itself is no powerful state, its only important due to the connection with the UK. Saxony had the potential to become a great power, a greater potential than Prussia, but didnt use it. No, I think its quite right to say that Prussia was the second most powerful German state at that time already, and Frederick finally led it to Great Power status IOTL, confirming that.
Yes, but that was because he was an idiot about it. He force converted his country and usurped the university of Marburg, which was supposed to be an all-Hessian university. Also, it was primarily an issue not of religion but inheritance: Hesse-Marburg fell by testament to Hesse-Kassel, but the testament also required the heir to be Lutheran, so Hesse-Darmstadt after the conversion had cause to contest Kassel ownership of the territory...
Susano
Banned
Two comments by me now:
1) France sure as hell wont be the only one to take issues with the Austro-Prussian marriage. Here he we have yet ANOTHER Protestant Prince-Elector converting to Catholicism, the SECOND already after Saxony. With that, Hannover is the LAST Protestant Prince-Electorate left. This will absolutely create an uproar in Germany, and yet it isnt even slightly mentioned.
2) Tuscany. Who gets it after the Medici die out? IOTL that was also settled in the War of the Polish Succession - Lorraine got it by fiat despite no family ties existing, in compensation for losing its core land. I dont think they will lose its coreland here, and at the same time theyre also obviously not as closely related to Austria as IOTL, so they wont even be in the running. Dynastically, together with the Farnese inheritance (Parma), it would fall to this guy, at the time of the marriage third son of the Spanish King. Somehow I think Parma and Tuscany might, lets say, get mentioned in the peace treaty...
1) France sure as hell wont be the only one to take issues with the Austro-Prussian marriage. Here he we have yet ANOTHER Protestant Prince-Elector converting to Catholicism, the SECOND already after Saxony. With that, Hannover is the LAST Protestant Prince-Electorate left. This will absolutely create an uproar in Germany, and yet it isnt even slightly mentioned.
2) Tuscany. Who gets it after the Medici die out? IOTL that was also settled in the War of the Polish Succession - Lorraine got it by fiat despite no family ties existing, in compensation for losing its core land. I dont think they will lose its coreland here, and at the same time theyre also obviously not as closely related to Austria as IOTL, so they wont even be in the running. Dynastically, together with the Farnese inheritance (Parma), it would fall to this guy, at the time of the marriage third son of the Spanish King. Somehow I think Parma and Tuscany might, lets say, get mentioned in the peace treaty...
Firstly, thanks for the compliments throughout. Its great to have another commentor, your nitpicks are appreciated.This is a really interesting timeline. I am so fascinated that I took the time to do some nitpicking.
First of all: The Austro-Prussian marriage as an "anchor" for the TL is a great idea.
Good job that you didn't shrink away out of our hindsight expectation of their hostility!
But I do have issues with the opening scene.
Such an open conversation between this father and this son seems rather unlikely to me, given their personalities and their relationship.
Moreover, I doubt Maria T. would be among that pile ...
As I said before, the opening scene is just a story, if you wish do not regard it as canon. Who knows what happened in the private chambers of the Hohenzollerns...
I said borders, not marginal or anything. Lorraine was still important.This is of course true in a geographical sense. But how are Prussia and Austria less marginal?
(With respect to position, that is.) Lorraine was one relatively significant territories of the Empire; and most of them lay at its fringes ...
No, my friend. It was a Bohemian city in between Austria and Brandenburg, to be pedantic.
This was a rumour, that FII had some horrible mutilation to his... Lower Countries... and he tolerated the homosexuality myth to hide this. Of course it was just a rumour, so I disregard it and assume that since Frederick was romantically interested in his TTL wife, he did not avoid 'the subject'.
You are indeed right. I will correct it according to Susanos more accurate description.
See Susanos answer. In fact, all of his replies are pretty valid.
The two countries are still very seperate, with their own seperate systems. This is focused on more after the war, as I have already written till Part 7 or so.
Yes, yes I do. This is sensible, isnt it?
They can say whatever they want, we're not contemporaries.
See OTL, there was a small garrisson that fell similarly.
Oh, you should see what comes up next war...Ha, it's hard not to do that in a TL where you still need Poland, right? Eager to hear what will come to pass
Do you mean the small princes? They dont have much influence.
I hadnt thought of this, thank you for bringing it up. What are your suggestions to the matter?
Also, thanks both of you for your constructive critisicm, and I want to ask you if I could pass my German translations by you since I think Boto pointed out an error in my trusty online translator last time.
Susano
Banned
Ah, gah, nitpicker!
Generally religion was independent of religion, just as generally inheritance wasnt done by testament anyways. Of course IF it was done by testament and the testament named religion, then of course its a different case! That is... way to simplifying
Whereas Germany took a century and a devastating war to reach a confessional balance, after two prince-electorly conversions its now all up in the air again and in imbalance. This will lead to great unrest among the protestant estates of the Empire, and may make imperial politics (such as they still existed...) difficult. Also, define "small" - the medium states certainly were able to tip balances in war one way or another.Well, I like the Palatinate-Tuscany union, but the PoD is too late for that - the last Medici daughter still lives in 1723, but is already 56 ears old, so not able anymore to give birth. So yes, dynastically it would fall to a son of the Bourbon King of Spain. I think it would really depend on how harsh the peace on the Bourbon Powers is. Normally peace treaties did not deprive people entirely of their rights. Though of course its possible that the guy gets Parma but not Tuscany... or the other way round.
As for who gets the other territory then - hm. Parma would certainly make a nice addition to Habsburg Italy, and hell, it used to belong to Milan. Or if its a very light peace maybe One of the two territories go the Spanish Prince, and the other one to the Polish throne claimant? So the Bourbon side of the war gets both, but Breslau gets divida et impera...
Sure, no problem.
I would expect FrederickWilhelm to raise hell about it, and even refusing to honour the pact, just to reaffirm that he is the king, not his son.
OTL he was outraged even when his generals stood up in front of his son. ("I will teach you [the generals] what happens to the worshippers of the rising sun [fritz]").
And also this could configure as a very serious crime (fritz would be usurping some of the king's powers), very much hurting his father's pride as absolute ruler of his country.
Considering that OTL Fritz risked death penalty for trying to escape from the kingdom, his father was quite prone to see treason and complots everywhere.
I think you should at least insert a row between them to cover it, if not even a Prussian turn-about.
anyway, good work!