Zoological Butterflies

Hey all,

This has been brought up before I believe, but usually in the context of evolution; as such, I've been wondering, there are numerous animals species that went extinct during the 20th Century (thylacine, three subspecies of tigers - Bali, Javan, Caspian, Caribbean monk seal), but with PODs in, say, the 1840s, or 50s, or even 60s, is it not possible that the butterflies caused by these PODs could allow some of these animals to survive?

What I'm driving at here is, we often say that a single divergence can butterfly away every person born after that POD, and therefore the events those people caused. Creatures like the thylacine evolved long before my proposed PODs, and although there are more factors than just certain people that contributed to its extinction, I'm loathe to believe it was inevitable.

For example, the American bison was reduced to near extinction in the 1880s, but today there are more than 500,000 bison in North America. This was because of zoological thinking in the 1880s and 1890s that brought the animal back from the brink. The thylacine and bison were hunted for very similar reasons (so to speak). Bison were hunted primarily to prevent competition with cattle rancher herds, a large economic asset in the midwest at the time. Granted, they were also culled to drive the natives from the land and for sport and skins. The thylacine were similarly hunted to extinction because of the needs of farmers in Tasmania.

The thylacine was already pretty much extinct from mainland Australia by the time Europeans came long, but the species itself survived right up until 1936 (last specimen died in Hobart Zoo in 1936). As with the bison, there were other factors leading to the extinction of the thylacine, including competition with introduced dogs, habitat destruction as farms grew, but generally they were culled due to claims that thylacines hunted and killed sheep.

Whether or not this is true, if I proposed a random POD in the 19th Century, could it be a logical thought process to assume that the thylacine could very well be saved from extinction? As with the bison, if any zoological and conservationist-inclined Tasmanians or Australians make enough noise about it, could the species be saved?

In previous discussions people proposed that the extinction was inevitable. Why? Competition with farmers and introduced species will always exist. Look at the kiwi of New Zealand for example. Rabbits were introduced in huge numbers, along with wild pigs (which would feast on kiwi and tuatara nests), and later stoats to cull the rabbits, and these introductions devastated the New Zealand kiwi populations. And yet today captive breedings programs have saved them.

Another example is the kangaroo. While never hunted to near-extinction, the kangaroo is a grazing animal (especially the red kangaroo) that lives in and around Australian cattle ranches, but this animal was not slaughtered to allow the cattle first priority. I understand that the reasons behind killing a carnivore and killing a herbivore can and do differ, but while certain animals in OTL were saved, others were not. The Tasmanian devil, closely resembling the thylacine in behaviour and habitat, was not wiped out, and they have a worse reputation for being murderous and evil (hence the name 'devil', due to their ghoulish yowls).

You may have noticed that I am specifically thinking of the thylacine here despite mentioning previously other species, but I find this to be the most unique and the most important as far as biodiversity is concerned.

Anyway, if I've swung too far from the swingset on this post, forgive me, when I get an idea I tend to let my thoughts loose, but does anyone have any thoughts or opinions?
 
It's an interesting idea--if I recall correctly, there were a number of Pacific island species that got wiped out by a single introduction of a predator or competitor, so there would be a chance that they survived in timelines where those introductions didn't occur.

On the other hand, there's always the other end of things: what species that survived in OTL might have been pushed over the brink? I think you'd see some social effects at the very least if the bison were driven to extinction...
 
I have often thought of this as well. It is an interesting thing to think about, and I often try to incorporate it into TLs (which I rarely finish).

Obviously areas being colonized by (large numbers) humans are often more deadly for species (American West for Bison, wolves, and several antelope species; Australia for many species; Modern rainforests for well everything which lives there).

Yes with most species there is always a chance someone would save them. TR happened to help save the Bison, by chance. If some entrepenuer from America or England brought Thylacines back to their home countries, and bred them, there would be a resevoir for conservation. Conservation is all a matter of when you begin saving the species. Sometimes species can't be pulled from the brink of extinction.

Now Another matter is Invasive species: Rats, pigs, etcetera. While a familiar package will be brought along with humans wherever they stray, there are always interesting tag-alongs who really inspire me. Chinese Tallow trees in Texas for example. Perhaps they may find good conditions in South Africa or Aussie, even S. America. Or invasive species never coming to a region; Cane toads perhaps.
 
I completely agree. Plenty of species that died out IOTL could have survived in any given TL. Tucked deep into my notes for TSPD I have this short-list of possible divergences.

1890s
#. Survival of the Fittest (Culture-Science, Extinct Animals)
Extinct (ITTL)?
Seychelles giant tortoise
Cross River gorilla
Amur Leopard
Asiatic Cheetah
Right whale
Père David's Deer
Alive (Extinct OTL)?
Eastern elk
Honshū Wolf
Atlas Bear
Quagga
Barbary lion
Passenger Pigeon
Thylacine
 
Yes, the quagga is another interesting one, and the Honshu wolf. The barbary lion and seychelle's tortoise are only extinct in the wild. They still exist in captivity.

The only timelines I've ever heard of as having alternate extinctions/extant species was The Kiat's Alternate Hitory of the Netherlands. The giant panda was wiped out in that timeline, but the Steller Sea Cow survived.
 
I have often thought of this as well. It is an interesting thing to think about, and I often try to incorporate it into TLs (which I rarely finish).

Obviously areas being colonized by (large numbers) humans are often more deadly for species (American West for Bison, wolves, and several antelope species; Australia for many species; Modern rainforests for well everything which lives there).

Yes with most species there is always a chance someone would save them. TR happened to help save the Bison, by chance. If some entrepenuer from America or England brought Thylacines back to their home countries, and bred them, there would be a resevoir for conservation. Conservation is all a matter of when you begin saving the species. Sometimes species can't be pulled from the brink of extinction.

I'm always pleased when TLs touch on these things.


Now Another matter is Invasive species: Rats, pigs, etcetera. While a familiar package will be brought along with humans wherever they stray, there are always interesting tag-alongs who really inspire me. Chinese Tallow trees in Texas for example. Perhaps they may find good conditions in South Africa or Aussie, even S. America. Or invasive species never coming to a region; Cane toads perhaps.

Imagine a North America without the Honey Bee, Starling or Kudzu.
 
Island species are more likely to go extinct, since contact with humanity's entourage--rats, pigs, domesticated cats, dogs--is almost inevitable once contact occurs for many of these species, but larger species on major continents may survive, such as the bison, certain species of big cat, etc. I may try to work this into A More Personal Union, I don't know yet.
 
Island species are more likely to go extinct, since contact with humanity's entourage--rats, pigs, domesticated cats, dogs--is almost inevitable once contact occurs for many of these species, but larger species on major continents may survive, such as the bison, certain species of big cat, etc. I may try to work this into A More Personal Union, I don't know yet.

In saying that, numerous island species, like the kiwi and tuatara I mentioned in the OP, survive despite introduction of non-native species. Similarly, I'm sure there are rats on the Galapagos, and those species are thriving.
 

mojojojo

Gone Fishin'
Yes, the quagga is another interesting one, and the Honshu wolf. The barbary lion and seychelle's tortoise are only extinct in the wild. They still exist in captivity.
Along that same line Gerald Durrell once suggested that if people had bothered to breed dodos in captivity, they could have become a popular ornamental bird (like peacocks&swans)
 
In saying that, numerous island species, like the kiwi and tuatara I mentioned in the OP, survive despite introduction of non-native species. Similarly, I'm sure there are rats on the Galapagos, and those species are thriving.

It's not a hard and fast rule, of course. However, some species it would be almost impossible to save, like the dodo, unless one somehow creates a much, much earlier conservationist movement, which is unlikely in the extreme. Not completely impossible, just extraordinarily difficult.
 
I'm always pleased when TLs touch on these things.

Imagine a North America without the Honey Bee, Starling or Kudzu.

I must say, Honeybees will probably follow humans. We have cultivated hoeybees since Ancient Egypt. Inevitably, some one, will bring over a colony or two, which is, well, interesting for America's native flora to say the least.

Starling a Kudzu however, both having roots in being ornamental species meant to 'give America a bit of culture' (Starks introduced by People who wanted Central park to have more Shakespearean elements IIRC, and Kudzu introduced as a present from Japan), are very likely to be butterflied. For instance kill the Shakespeare nut, or have the Japanese send something else.

The Mongoose problem in Hawaii is an interesting one. Housecats do a much better job a culling mouse populations, so in an ATL, they are never introduced, and bird species hold out a bit longer.

Australia,...aussie, aussie, aussie...Camels are a lucky accident, as are the Foxes, Those damn rabbits, and infamous Cane Toad. A good portion of your pests are Human accompaniments, however, which means they come regardless of TL. I'd imagine Maybe some Zebras (Quagga anyone?) and Burmese Pythons/other large Constrictor would do well in Aussie, if you're looking for new visitors.

While I'm on the subject of the Land down under; The Macropods. I might be a bit fanciful here, but I have few doubts that a Wallaby or small kangaroo could survive in Southern Africa, or Argentina, perhaps even the American Southwest. There are rumours that some are loose in Great Britain, even. Some seem quite adaptable, which is a common trait amongst weeds of all sorts.
 
It's not a hard and fast rule, of course. However, some species it would be almost impossible to save, like the dodo, unless one somehow creates a much, much earlier conservationist movement, which is unlikely in the extreme. Not completely impossible, just extraordinarily difficult.

Early conservationism is possible. It should probably have a religious basis to work well in Early Modern Europe, but can be worked out. And the butterflies would be very large.
 
Australia,...aussie, aussie, aussie...Camels are a lucky accident, [...]

While I'm on the subject of the Land down under; The Macropods. I might be a bit fanciful here, but I have few doubts that a Wallaby or small kangaroo could survive in Southern Africa, or Argentina, perhaps even the American Southwest.
similarly, if you remember the US Camel Corp, camels were introduced to the american southwest as well for military use as pack animals; they were well-adapted to the environment, but the army decided against using them because they spooked horses, and the last feral camel to be seen in the US was in 1941 in texas. if the US had made slightly more concerted efforts towards a camel corps, or perhaps received some camels as a gift from a foreign country*, there could be a stable population of feral camels (probably dromedaries) in the southwest; if feral horses can survive in that general area, then why not camels?

*oman, maybe? the US and oman were trade allies for a bit, and gifts of animals weren't uncommon, as the king of thailand offered to send some war elephants to help the union during the ACW but was turned down



on my own part, for Anglo-American Rivalry, ive pretty much decided that butterflies result in the Falkland Fox (aka Warrah) survives extinction (but is still critically endangered) and is known as the Malvinas Culpeo instead (since Chile controls the islands instead of Britain)

ive also speculated about other alternate extinctions, namely by going over more recent extinctions and looking at their actual causes and deciding what would be inevitable given the circumstances (for example, if an island extinction is caused by rats, i rule that as inevitable because sailors wouldnt have as much control over rats being on their ships)
 
anticostiger

With a population of 500 the amur tiger is highly endangered. It lives far from major political centers, and close to a Chinese market for its parts. It is highly endangered due to poaching. I propose to transfer some of these tigers to Anticosti Island, which has a similar climate to Primorye.
With only one significent setlement the tigers would have three thousand square miles of habitat. Being on an island and far from a major market, they would be much less threatened by poachers. Moose could also be transferred to Anticosti as a supplemental prey species.
if any tigers could get across the ice on the north bank of the saint Lawrence, they would run into very little setlement with no farmland. They would be a problem only if they moved across the Saguenay.
Anticosti would then be a safari destination to rival african destinations.
 
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