Zimmermann's War

Here's my second serious timeline. My Mongolia one is on hold but I think was OK for a first go.

POD: January 19, 1917: The 'Zimmermann Telegram' is not intercepted by British intelligence.


- In March of 1917, just as in our timeline, the 'Febuarary Revolution' breaks out in Russia and the Czar abdicates. Moral is at an all time high for the central powers and many feel that they can win the war.

- With the Central Powers seemingly in a position to achieve victory, president Venustiano Carranza, leads Mexico into war with the United States. His hopes were threefold. 1, that he could unite the people of Mexico against a common enemy, 2, that he could form valuable alliances with the central powers and 3, that he could add the developed areas of South-west America into Mexico, believing they could become valuable.

- On March 11, the day of his presidential inauguration, the Mexicans launch a surprise attack, crossing the Rio Grande into Texas. With very few US troops in the state they make a bee-line towards the capital at Austin. It soon became clear that the army couldn't be stopped by conventional means before they reached the capital as the US troops needed more time to mobilize and arrive.

-The capital may have been taken if it had not been for Brig. General Charles Justin Bailey, who was visiting Fort Bliss at the time of the invasion. He declared himself field commander in Texas after the fighting broke out, an act which the White House agreed to temporarily confirm. He then used a combination of chlorine gas, which he retrieved from it's holding place in a warehouse in central Texas, and 'farm to farm' fighting (essentially he would place machine gun nests in barns and on the sides of rodes) to slow the advance.

- US reinforcements arrive in Austin and fight off the Mexicans and launch an immediate counter attack. The Mexicans regroup and fortify south of the Nueces River, digging trenches and using the river to slow the US. This begins the 'Battle of South Texas.'

- Between March 25-30 the US heavily bombards the Mexican side of the river with artillery. On March 31 the US attempt to cross the river. The ensuing combat would cause 10s of thousands of casualties but the US would gain several footholds across the river. The fighting would spill over into April 1st until the Mexicans finally gave the order to retreat in the early morning.

- Over the next few days the US pursued the Mexicans relentlessly and finally, by April 10, the Mexicans are pushed out of Texas. Carranza, now loosing popularity rapidly, comes out into the open and declares that the war was at the request of the central powers and that it was for the good of the future of Mexico. The Central powers and Wilhelm II vehemently deny this and condemn the actions of Mexico, as well as offer aid to the US for the war effort once the war in Europe was completed.

- In his famous speech soon after Woodrow Wilson declares that the US would remain neutral in Europe as long as they were not attacked and stated that he now saw the Central Powers in 'a different and much better light.'

- The aftermath of this speech led to a cascade in Europe. First Italy, on April 19th, having lost hope now that American intervention was out of the question, surrenders their lands north of the peninsula proper in exchange for peace. Then in Britain many considered the war now essentially lost. On April 25th the single largest protest in British history occurs, demanding an end to the war, as a result the Queen dismisses the government and appoints a pro-peace government. Using their clear leverage the Central Powers force Britain into a treaty on April 30th where, in exchange, the British provided French military intel.

- On April 31st Germany launches a major offensive and breaks the French trench system and finally moves the war into the open. On this same day Wilhelm II announces his ambitions for Germany to annex France and create a European super-state.

- May 1, the Mexican's agree to terms of surrender in which they are to pay reparations to the US and surrender the lands of Baja California. Soon after the US congress decides to divide California into two states, California in the north, with it's capital at Sacramento, and Baja in the south with it's capital in San Diego.

- As May progresses the Central Powers hammer France and much of the French army begins deserting, considering the war a hopeless cause. Finally on May 29th several army commanders coup the president and surrender to Germany and the Central Powers in exchange for equal rights in this new empire to Germans. They also annex Belgium and the Netherlands. The areas that were Russia remain the same as in OTL. WW1 is now essentially over and Austria-Hungary sets up puppet governments in the Balkans, hoping this will work better then reclaiming them. Europe (minus Russia) now looks as such.

PostWW1.jpg


And there's my first post. Any feedback would be most welcomed just as last time. Thanks in advance.
 
Honestly I enjoyed it up until the part about the annexation of France. Unless it's part of the plot that Germany has gone completely mad I have a hard time seeing that. Also what happened with Serbia? Am I mistaken or wasn't one of A-H's Demands to accept annexation?
 
AL,

Where to begin... sigh...

- With the Central Powers seemingly in a position to achieve victory, president Venustiano Carranza, leads Mexico into war with the United States.

Carranza wasn't that stupid and the Central Powers can neither provide him with arms or money he requires thanks to the Entente blockade.

He then used a combination of chlorine gas...

The US had no gas munitions at this time. It manufactured materials for gas munitions for the Entente, but it had no gas shells in it's own inventory let alone any sitting in a warehouse in Texas just waiting to be used.

It doesn't have gas masks either, which is sort of important when the wind can blow gas back onto your own troops.

The Mexicans regroup and fortify south...

If the Mexicans fortify themselves in a pocket south of the Nueces river, all they've done is let the US cut their supply lines. Carranza and the Mexicans aren't that stupid.

... the US heavily bombards the Mexican side of the river with artillery. On March 31 the US attempt to cross the river. The ensuing combat would cause 10s of thousands of casualties but the US would gain several footholds across the river.

Instead of cutting the Mexican army's supply lines and starving them out, the US instead is going to attack straight into the defenses of the Mexican pocket while crossing a river to boot. Apparently they'll do this because it's what is being done in Western Europe and because, apparently, they're incredibly stupid.

The US - Mexican border is approximately 1970 miles long. Neither side has the troops necessary to turn that border, or any salients in Texas, into a continuously fortified trench zone as was found in Western Europe. Among other things, that mean any Mexican invasion of Texas will not resemble the Somme.

Carranza, now loosing popularity rapidly, comes out into the open and declares that the war was at the request of the central powers and that it was for the good of the future of Mexico.

And produces the Zimmerman telegram as proof, proof that can be easily checked by the US because it was transmitted on a US STATE DEPARTMENT CABLE. Ooops...

The Central powers and Wilhelm II vehemently deny this and condemn the actions of Mexico, as well as offer aid to the US for the war effort once the war in Europe was completed.

After making his post-war offer of aid to the US, the nation that has fed and supplied his enemies in France and the UK for over three years, Wilhelm II watches in bemusement as monkeys fly out of his bum.

On April 25th the single largest protest in British history occurs, demanding an end to the war, as a result the Queen dismisses the government...

I was unaware that His Majesty George the Fifth by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India was a cross dresser. It explains a lot actually.

... Wilhelm II announces his ambitions for Germany to annex France...

As more monkeys fly out of his bum.

I'd tackle the rest but I'm laughing too hard.


Bill
 

LittleSpeer

Monthly Donor
I enjoy stretching my imagination a lot more then most members on here for what should be ASB but i even thinks this belongs there. There is no way the Germans could annex all of France even while giving them equal rights. England would never let this be and could and would keep up the blockade. The Hapsburg wanted to annex Serbia and Montenegro but i could see them falling apart if action is not taken quickly. What happens to the Ottoman Empire? What land concessions do they get or do they fall apart? On a final note, Wilson would take the Mexican presidents statement and use it to declare war on the Central powers anyway. America was on the edge anyway because of Germany's unrestricted warfare so this would be the final straw.
 

LittleSpeer

Monthly Donor
AL,

Where to begin... sigh...



Carranza wasn't that stupid and the Central Powers can neither provide him with arms or money he requires thanks to the Entente blockade.



The US had no gas munitions at this time. It manufactured materials for gas munitions for the Entente, but it had no gas shells in it's own inventory let alone any sitting in a warehouse in Texas just waiting to be used.

It doesn't have gas masks either, which is sort of important when the wind can blow gas back onto your own troops.



If the Mexicans fortify themselves in a pocket south of the Nueces river, all they've done is let the US cut their supply lines. Carranza and the Mexicans aren't that stupid.



Instead of cutting the Mexican army's supply lines and starving them out, the US instead is going to attack straight into the defenses of the Mexican pocket while crossing a river to boot. Apparently they'll do this because it's what is being done in Western Europe and because, apparently, they're incredibly stupid.

The US - Mexican border is approximately 1970 miles long. Neither side has the troops necessary to turn that border, or any salients in Texas, into a continuously fortified trench zone as was found in Western Europe. Among other things, that mean any Mexican invasion of Texas will not resemble the Somme.



And produces the Zimmerman telegram as proof, proof that can be easily checked by the US because it was transmitted on a US STATE DEPARTMENT CABLE. Ooops...



After making his post-war offer of aid to the US, the nation that has fed and supplied his enemies in France and the UK for over three years, Wilhelm II watches in bemusement as monkeys fly out of his bum.



I was unaware that His Majesty George the Fifth by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India was a cross dresser. It explains a lot actually.



As more monkeys fly out of his bum.

I'd tackle the rest but I'm laughing too hard.


Bill
i think this has made my year
the monkeys and the cross dresser part was the best reply i have heard in a while
 
After making his post-war offer of aid to the US, the nation that has fed and supplied his enemies in France and the UK for over three years, Wilhelm II watches in bemusement as monkeys fly out of his bum.



I was unaware that His Majesty George the Fifth by the Grace of God, of the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Ireland and of the British Dominions beyond the Seas, King, Defender of the Faith, Emperor of India was a cross dresser. It explains a lot actually.



As more monkeys fly out of his bum.

This makes it all worth it. :D

But, yeah, ASB. the "Germans-annex-all-of-France" thing clinched how ridiculous this is.
 
I think bill put my opinion down quite well. ;):p The idea of this sounds great, seeing as it finally brings major fighting to North America and can have quite a drastic effect on the mindset of the nation as well the treaties, etc. However once a war breaks out with Mexico, both them and the central powers will be Fucked, no other way around it.
 
OK here's the deal this was one of those things I did at 2 in the morning and sounded really good then. Not so much now :eek:
 
OK here's the deal this was one of those things I did at 2 in the morning and sounded really good then. Not so much now :eek:

"Carranza, now loosing popularity rapidly, comes out into the open and declares that the war was at the request of the central powers" And Wilson is going to be able to keep the US out of the war in Europe after this? No way.

Abe, you made the effort, and that counts for something. But I have a rule of thumb for anything written in either the heat of anger or late at night. I don't do anything with it until I've read it again in the cold, clear light of the next day. It's good policy for anyone.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
ASB!

Mexico was internally in turmoil and had not capacity to attack the US.

Germany never had capacity to annex all of France, neither the wish to do so.

If you want the US to keep out of WW1 there are two ways; a) Have the Pershing expedition be more a disaster than OTL, and make popular sentiment in the US cry for revenge. The US could at worse be tangled down in Mexico for decades.
b) No unrestricted submarine warfare, no US casus belli on Germany.
 
You all should read The Zimmerman Telegram by Barbara Tuchman.

The British had so thoroughly penetrated German communications that the odds of the British NOT intercepting this message were roughly as good as the sun not rising in the east one morning. In fact, the Germans sent the infamous telegram through three different means of communication and the British got ALL of them!
 
Despite the implausibility, I like your writing style. A good starting point for any future efforts.
 
A lot has been said before, so I'll be brief.

The PoD is unlikely, not only would the telegram have to slip unnoticed along the lines Britain more or less controlled, but Mexico could not and would not consider a war with the United States. Not only could they not win, no one could realistically think they could win, and there was no unified, stable government in which such a crazy, crazy person could be.

The war in North America, if it magically began, would not have happened as such, for a lot of reasons, a few of which Mister Cameron has mentioned.

The war in Europe would not end in the annexation of France because that's insane, but also because people voted in Germany, and states with even partial democracy try to avoid getting a majority of people that hate the state.

No worries. Happened to the best of us. You block it from your memory so four years later you can feel comfortable tearing into some new guy who doesn't know better. :rolleyes:
 

The Vulture

Banned
You have some good ideas and I like your writing style.

The plausibility factor is the only thing here, but as you said it was 2 in the morning and sounded like a great idea. I can sympathize.
 
German France? France would never surrender an be annexed like that? Perhaps military occupation of France for a set time. As for the rest of it, possible depending on which faction actually controlled Mexico in 1917. They'd still be pounded into the ground.
 
It looked good in the first three sentences, but then it got funny. I applaud you sir, for making me laugh on a very bleak and rainy day. ;)
 
AL,









"The US had no gas munitions at this time. It manufactured materials for gas munitions for the Entente, but it had no gas shells in it's own inventory let alone any sitting in a warehouse in Texas just waiting to be used.

It doesn't have gas masks either, which is sort of important when the wind can blow gas back onto your own troops."





The rest may be ASB but the bit about chlorine attacks is actually the one thing in there that is plausable. Chlorine gas wasen't fired from shells but released from cylinders when the wind was right. Chlorine is also a common industrial chemical so getting a hold of tanks of the stuff wouldn't be too hard.
Gas masks could be a problem but the speed with which masks were created which could deal with chlorine in 1915 shows that its not impossible that crude pad type masks could have been made to use alongside chlorine cloud attacks.
 
The rest may be ASB but the bit about chlorine attacks is actually the one thing in there that is plausable.



BWG,

No. It isn't "plausable".

Chlorine gas wasen't fired from shells but released from cylinders when the wind was right.

You both right and wrong with that. The first few times chlorine was used is was deployed as you wrote; cylinders were opened when the wind blowing in the right direction in the hopes that it would waft over to the enemy trenches. This worked about as well as could be expected, so shells were quickly developed.

Releasing gas from cylinders was a failure.

Chlorine is also a common industrial chemical so getting a hold of tanks of the stuff wouldn't be too hard.

It's a common industrial chemical in the late 20th/early 21st Century, but how about in the essentially non-industrial Texas of 1915?

Gas masks could be a problem but the speed with which masks were created which could deal with chlorine in 1915 shows that its not impossible that crude pad type masks could have been made to use alongside chlorine cloud attacks.

There's another aspect of the original post you've failed to comprehend.

The OP isn't using gas to attack. He using it to defend strong points, something that gas is very poorly suited for. Gas is good against fixed troops in fixed defenses or, in other words, defenders. Gas is not very good against mobile troops.

I'm sorry but the OP's assertions regarding gas are as nonsensical as the majority of his post.


Bill
 
BWG,

No. It isn't "plausable".



You both right and wrong with that. The first few times chlorine was used is was deployed as you wrote; cylinders were opened when the wind blowing in the right direction in the hopes that it would waft over to the enemy trenches. This worked about as well as could be expected, so shells were quickly developed.

Releasing gas from cylinders was a failure.



It's a common industrial chemical in the late 20th/early 21st Century, but how about in the essentially non-industrial Texas of 1915?



There's another aspect of the original post you've failed to comprehend.

The OP isn't using gas to attack. He using it to defend strong points, something that gas is very poorly suited for. Gas is good against fixed troops in fixed defenses or, in other words, defenders. Gas is not very good against mobile troops.

I'm sorry but the OP's assertions regarding gas are as nonsensical as the majority of his post.


Bill

Everything I've read says that chlorine was never used in shells and that it was simply replaced by phosgene which was used largely in shells.
As for its commonality it was a common industrial chemical even then hence its early use as a weapon. Probably not in rural Texas in 1917 but amounts would exist in the Upper Midwest and other industrial areas of the US. From there its only a few days train ride away from the front.
I agree that the tactical use of the stuff is bad but its also vague which means there's for it to have been used in a manner that works. Also the Mexicans and Americans had never used or fought with gas so even limited sucess is likely to have a bigger impact then it would in Europe at the same time.
 
As for its commonality it was a common industrial chemical even then hence its early use as a weapon.


BWG,

Common in industrial chemical processing of which Germany was the world leader in 1917. And it still took a future Nobel winner to come up with the chlorine compounds the Germans first used at Ypres.

Blithely assuming that the same thing could be found in Texas warehouses and used with any effect is nonsense.

I agree that the tactical use of the stuff is bad but its also vague which means there's for it to have been used in a manner that works.

Vague? Try re-reading this passage:

The capital may have been taken if it had not been for Brig. General Charles Justin Bailey, who was visiting Fort Bliss at the time of the invasion. He declared himself field commander in Texas after the fighting broke out, an act which the White House agreed to temporarily confirm. He then used a combination of chlorine gas, which he retrieved from it's holding place in a warehouse in central Texas, and 'farm to farm' fighting (essentially he would place machine gun nests in barns and on the sides of rodes) to slow the advance.

The OP explicitly writes that General Bailey used a combination of gas and fortified farms to slow the Mexican advance and that he found the necessary gas in it's "holding place" in a central Texas warehouse. How much more do you need?

Also the Mexicans and Americans had never used or fought with gas so even limited sucess is likely to have a bigger impact then it would in Europe at the same time.

Again, I'll point out the vastness of the Texan "front" and the low density of troops fighting in the region. Neither the Mexicans or Americans are going to be tied down defending a trench system so, when gas attacks occur, they can simply shift positions.

When you find yourself in a hole it's best to put down the shovel. There's no need to salvage this nonsensical thread as even it's creator has abandoned it with the excuse that he thought it all up at 2 AM.

Do yourself a favor and let this crap die.


Bill
 
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