Yugoslovia with out Tito

For what ever reason Josip Broz Tito dies at the age of 58 in 1950. Does Yugoslovia stay together? Does it become a full member of the Warsaw Pact? Or does it have a civil war to decide which group or ideaology runs the nation?
 
For what ever reason Josip Broz Tito dies at the age of 58 in 1950. Does Yugoslovia stay together? Does it become a full member of the Warsaw Pact? Or does it have a civil war to decide which group or ideaology runs the nation?
Yugoslavia is Now BONED ...

The Various Ethnic Groups Proceed to Throw Everything but The Kitchen Sink at Each Other, Whoops Spoke too Soon there Goes a Kohler ...

Meanwhile The Only Winners are The Koreans, Who Get to Watch a Super-Power Proxy War in Someone Else's Neighbourhood!

:eek:
 
Yugoslavia is Now BONED ...

The Various Ethnic Groups Proceed to Throw Everything but The Kitchen Sink at Each Other, Whoops Spoke too Soon there Goes a Kohler ...

Meanwhile The Only Winners are The Koreans, Who Get to Watch a Super-Power Proxy War in Someone Else's Neighbourhood!

:eek:

not necessary. By that time nationalistic feelings weren't high so staying together under firm hand is likely. Depending on who comes on top is how Yugoslavia will orient itself.
 
I think that Yugoslavia would hold together. The state was being ruled by the Communist Party, in the era before Communism had been discredited. When Yugoslavia broke up OTL Communism had been discredited and thus the state needed a new ruling ideology. The Serbs were able to hijack the Yugoslav state and tried to use it as a vehicle for Greater Serbia, basically nationalism became the new ideology of Yugoslavia, and the country flew apart because the Serbs nationalism wasn't strong enough to hold it together.

The question is whether this Tito-less Yugoslavia is going to be able to stand up to the Soviet Union. So if Yugoslavia is able to survive Tito's death intact, then I think that you would end up seeing a real contest at the top over who gets to be the new ruler. There are some really interesting things going in 1950, the Korean War is about to start, Stalin is about to die, and the whole de-Stalinization process that allowed the Hungarian rebellion and disorders across the Warsaw Bloc. With all this lack of Soviet central control, the American facing down the Soviets and Chinese in Korea, and American support for anti-Communist efforts rising, I think some kind of detente between Yugoslavia and the Eisenhower Administration is a definite possibility.
 

Valdemar II

Banned
I think that Yugoslavia would hold together. The state was being ruled by the Communist Party, in the era before Communism had been discredited. When Yugoslavia broke up OTL Communism had been discredited and thus the state needed a new ruling ideology. The Serbs were able to hijack the Yugoslav state and tried to use it as a vehicle for Greater Serbia, basically nationalism became the new ideology of Yugoslavia, and the country flew apart because the Serbs nationalism wasn't strong enough to hold it together.

The question is whether this Tito-less Yugoslavia is going to be able to stand up to the Soviet Union. So if Yugoslavia is able to survive Tito's death intact, then I think that you would end up seeing a real contest at the top over who gets to be the new ruler. There are some really interesting things going in 1950, the Korean War is about to start, Stalin is about to die, and the whole de-Stalinization process that allowed the Hungarian rebellion and disorders across the Warsaw Bloc. With all this lack of Soviet central control, the American facing down the Soviets and Chinese in Korea, and American support for anti-Communist efforts rising, I think some kind of detente between Yugoslavia and the Eisenhower Administration is a definite possibility.


It seem logical, what should the new ideology be? panslavisme? its the only identity 90% of the population has in common (but after the WWII who would take that serious), or the creation of a new Yugoslavian identity, but how can that be created?
 
I think that Yugoslavia would hold together. The state was being ruled by the Communist Party, in the era before Communism had been discredited. When Yugoslavia broke up OTL Communism had been discredited and thus the state needed a new ruling ideology. The Serbs were able to hijack the Yugoslav state and tried to use it as a vehicle for Greater Serbia, basically nationalism became the new ideology of Yugoslavia, and the country flew apart because the Serbs nationalism wasn't strong enough to hold it together.

The question is whether this Tito-less Yugoslavia is going to be able to stand up to the Soviet Union. So if Yugoslavia is able to survive Tito's death intact, then I think that you would end up seeing a real contest at the top over who gets to be the new ruler. There are some really interesting things going in 1950, the Korean War is about to start, Stalin is about to die, and the whole de-Stalinization process that allowed the Hungarian rebellion and disorders across the Warsaw Bloc. With all this lack of Soviet central control, the American facing down the Soviets and Chinese in Korea, and American support for anti-Communist efforts rising, I think some kind of detente between Yugoslavia and the Eisenhower Administration is a definite possibility.

It seem logical, what should the new ideology be? panslavisme? its the only identity 90% of the population has in common (but after the WWII who would take that serious), or the creation of a new Yugoslavian identity, but how can that be created?
Interesting Ideas, But ALL of Mathaiis' Problems Might Wind up Getting Butterflied Away ...

With Europe Simmering Along Nicely Kim Il Jong May Never Get The Go Ahead to Invade, And without The Stress of The War Stalin May Not Have that Stroke ...

Even More Importantly, there won't be a De-Stalinization while Stalin Still Lives, And without a Korean War Eisenhower Might Never Even Decide to Go into Politics!

:p
 
Interesting Ideas, But ALL of Mathaiis' Problems Might Wind up Getting Butterflied Away ...

With Europe Simmering Along Nicely Kim Il Jong May Never Get The Go Ahead to Invade, And without The Stress of The War Stalin May Not Have that Stroke ...

Even More Importantly, there won't be a De-Stalinization while Stalin Still Lives, And without a Korean War Eisenhower Might Never Even Decide to Go into Politics!

I think that Stalin would have died pretty soon anyway, the man was old, I think that he was probably pretty tired out by a life of power mongering and mass killing. Whether he died in '51 or '53 the man was going to die, and de-Stalinization was going to happen. IMO Stalin had created a situation where once he died no one who survived his reign would allow another man like him to arise, and some kind of de-Stalinization would happen after his death.

Kim Il Jong was also hell-bent on his war against the South. He would have launched it regardless, and with Tito dead and the resulting tension (regardless of ethnic violence or lack thereof, the death of the leading anti-Stalin Communist head of state would create tension) would probably encourage him, as he would see Western (read: American) focus on Europe and not paying attention to a brush fire war beyond the pale in East Asia.

It seem logical, what should the new ideology be? panslavisme? its the only identity 90% of the population has in common (but after the WWII who would take that serious), or the creation of a new Yugoslavian identity, but how can that be created?

I don't think that a new identity could be created. I think that the Communist Party would have to be the glue that bound the country together. A soulless bureaucracy bent on modernization, industrialization, and keeping power. I'm thinking the ruthless suppression of any nationalist movements, the promotion of Serbo-Croatian, and the mandatory police suppression of student movements.
 
It seem logical, what should the new ideology be? panslavisme? its the only identity 90% of the population has in common (but after the WWII who would take that serious), or the creation of a new Yugoslavian identity, but how can that be created?

Surely the link between Panslavism and Russia and orthodox christianity would be a turn off to Croats, Slovenes, muslims etc?
 
The question is whether this Tito-less Yugoslavia is going to be able to stand up to the Soviet Union. So if Yugoslavia is able to survive Tito's death intact, then I think that you would end up seeing a real contest at the top over who gets to be the new ruler. There are some really interesting things going in 1950, the Korean War is about to start, Stalin is about to die, and the whole de-Stalinization process that allowed the Hungarian rebellion and disorders across the Warsaw Bloc. With all this lack of Soviet central control, the American facing down the Soviets and Chinese in Korea, and American support for anti-Communist efforts rising, I think some kind of detente between Yugoslavia and the Eisenhower Administration is a definite possibility.

Likely. After Informbiro pro-Stalinists were shipped away to work camps so they held no real power. Whoever comes on top will likely continue to keep distance from SU.
 
I think that Stalin would have died pretty soon anyway, the man was old, I think that he was probably pretty tired out by a life of power mongering and mass killing. Whether he died in '51 or '53 the man was going to die, and de-Stalinization was going to happen. IMO Stalin had created a situation where once he died no one who survived his reign would allow another man like him to arise, and some kind of de-Stalinization would happen after his death.

Kim Il Jong was also hell-bent on his war against the South. He would have launched it regardless, and with Tito dead and the resulting tension (regardless of ethnic violence or lack thereof, the death of the leading anti-Stalin Communist head of state would create tension) would probably encourage him, as he would see Western (read: American) focus on Europe and not paying attention to a brush fire war beyond the pale in East Asia.



I don't think that a new identity could be created. I think that the Communist Party would have to be the glue that bound the country together. A soulless bureaucracy bent on modernization, industrialization, and keeping power. I'm thinking the ruthless suppression of any nationalist movements, the promotion of Serbo-Croatian, and the mandatory police suppression of student movements.

The leader of North Korea was Kim Il Sung,his son is Kim Il Jong
 
New cLASS HEAD OF THE CLASS

i THINK sorry for the poor spelling, Dijas, might just come out on top.
He may try to make a deal with opposing forces to form a govt of national unity. I think the Russians might fear he is pulling a NAGY.
US willing to back him, since he is leavign soviet block behind.
 
Likely. After Informbiro pro-Stalinists were shipped away to work camps so they held no real power. Whoever comes on top will likely continue to keep distance from SU.

But keeping distance from the SU and reapproachment with the Americans is not the same thing, right?

If Yugoslavia has Tito dead in 1950, and a new leadership takes over, then could something be done to have Yugoslavia help the Hungarians? I know that this is probably totally implausible, but how likely would it be that the West could get the Yugoslavia to intervene. Although I don't know precisely what they would DO in Hungary, but hey, that's what the rest of the group is for!

So if we have a non-Tito Yugoslavia, then perhaps this Yugoslavia does a better job at modernization and opening itself up to the West? I think that an educated, really politically oppressed people like ATL Yugoslavs, would jump at the chance to have some economic freedoms. I think that the only way for Yugoslavia to avoid it OTL fate is to economically grow its way out of it, meaning basically Chinese levels of growth (8% a year for years on end)

The leader of North Korea was Kim Il Sung,his son is Kim Il Jong

Sorry quite right about the leader circa 1950. Although isn't the son Kim Jong Il?
 
But keeping distance from the SU and reapproachment with the Americans is not the same thing, right?

Of course, never claimed otherwise.

If Yugoslavia has Tito dead in 1950, and a new leadership takes over, then could something be done to have Yugoslavia help the Hungarians? I know that this is probably totally implausible, but how likely would it be that the West could get the Yugoslavia to intervene. Although I don't know precisely what they would DO in Hungary, but hey, that's what the rest of the group is for!

Openly? Not likely. Covertly? Between maybe and likely, specially if Nagy is offed in same way as in OTL.

So if we have a non-Tito Yugoslavia, then perhaps this Yugoslavia does a better job at modernization and opening itself up to the West? I think that an educated, really politically oppressed people like ATL Yugoslavs, would jump at the chance to have some economic freedoms. I think that the only way for Yugoslavia to avoid it OTL fate is to economically grow its way out of it, meaning basically Chinese levels of growth (8% a year for years on end)

Weeeeeeell, maybe but not certanly. Back in those days people believed communism would work an they would get better standard. so if there is private initiative in some sectors (agriculture, small business) people would go for it. Full capitalism, no. People just fought a bloody 4 year war to get rid of capitalistic exploitation so return to it isn't plausible.
 
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