Yr Iath Cymraeg: Preserve the heartlands

In 1961, most of what was then Anglesey, Caernarfonshire, Meirioneth, Cardiganshire and Carmarthenshire as well as large areas of Denbighshire and Pembrokeshire were over 80% Welsh speaking. Today the heartland is in crisis and few such areas remain.

How do we retain those areas so that areas where more than 80% of the population speak Welsh don't shrink? Welsh seems to have also lost many of the important Fro Cymraeg towns, since then, such as Holyhead,Bangor, Carmarthen and Aberystwyth. How do we preserve them?

How would this stable, Belgium like scenario, affect the status of the language overall, it's revival outside the heartlands and Welsh politics?
 

GarethC

Donor
What was the demographic change that happened to drive the language change?

Did local children stop speaking Welsh, say, due to English-language media? Or did they leave - was there a mass migration of locals in search of economic opportunity? In which case, what drew new non-Welsh speakers move in to the area - just cheap housing?


Off hand (and I know that the plural of anecdote is not evidence) I think there's a decline in some industries - in particular slate production (a vertical associated with Welsh-speakers) halved between 1960 and 1970 in the face of competition from either fired tiles or other European roofing imports, for instance, with similar issues for coal mining, steel, and fishing. So places like Aberdyfi saw a pretty wholesale transition from fishing to tourism, with the local populace exiting stage left in time for Mancunian middle-classes to acquire a second home near a (quite cold and blowy) beach.

Stop that economic failure, either by supporting the industries or subsidising a transition to replacement ones, and you can avoid any Welsh-flight issue.

Having said that, it's very hard to do. Wales is by and large not favoured in this way - the terrain in the middle is not helpful, and the transport infrastructure does not exist to assist. A colleague of mine from Swansea who had to visit some client sites near Bangor would often joke about the fact that it was faster to drive to Bristol and Birmingham then back into North Wales, than to take a more direct route. North Wales develops in the shadow of transport and industry hubs in Liverpool and Birmingham -
 
Bangor and Aberystwyth are university towns: with the expansion of student numbers, and the immigrants needed to teach them, etc, I can't see how either place can retain its' character.
 
I guess I could see Aber remaining Welsh speaking if it really focusses on being a Welsh university rather than following its historic path of trying to be a competitive uni. There are still lots of Welsh speakers in that area.

I guess you really have to get modern attitudes to Welsh popping up early. I would agree a better Welsh economy would help a lot with that. Its hard to convince people to speak a language with inferior economic prospects when everything would be so much better for them if they just stick to English.
 
What was the demographic change that happened to drive the language change?

Did local children stop speaking Welsh, say, due to English-language media? Or did they leave - was there a mass migration of locals in search of economic opportunity? In which case, what drew new non-Welsh speakers move in to the area - just cheap housing?


Off hand (and I know that the plural of anecdote is not evidence) I think there's a decline in some industries - in particular slate production (a vertical associated with Welsh-speakers) halved between 1960 and 1970 in the face of competition from either fired tiles or other European roofing imports, for instance, with similar issues for coal mining, steel, and fishing. So places like Aberdyfi saw a pretty wholesale transition from fishing to tourism, with the local populace exiting stage left in time for Mancunian middle-classes to acquire a second home near a (quite cold and blowy) beach.

Stop that economic failure, either by supporting the industries or subsidising a transition to replacement ones, and you can avoid any Welsh-flight issue.

Having said that, it's very hard to do. Wales is by and large not favoured in this way - the terrain in the middle is not helpful, and the transport infrastructure does not exist to assist. A colleague of mine from Swansea who had to visit some client sites near Bangor would often joke about the fact that it was faster to drive to Bristol and Birmingham then back into North Wales, than to take a more direct route. North Wales develops in the shadow of transport and industry hubs in Liverpool and Birmingham -

Incomers have certainly made a massive difference, see Cymuned for further details. I have been to Porthmadog recently and in both cases the teenagers and young adults were mostly speaking Welsh but in this bar, everyone else seemed to be Incomers or tourists. Y felinheli, in 10 years seems to have been massively anglicised, though as of yet not entirely and I don't know how many English speakers were actually tourists.

How about this ATL:
No RAF base on Anglesey.
Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Porthmadog-Bangor lines stay open
Only one University in the Fro Cymraeg, and have all non-lecturer staff be Welsh speaking, and have 70% of students be in Welsh Medium courses.
As soon as there is any sign of somewhere becoming too popular and expensive, have the council intervene immediately.
Encourage large employers, such as Outward Bound in Aberdyfi to hire local people.
Have all schools be Welsh medium in the Fro. This would serve to ensure that incoming English speaking children obtain fluency, if they don't simply pick it up, like a linguistic safety net.
Industries are important. Have the fishing industry survive but have ones like Aluminium smelting etc on Anglesey be a substitute for slate in Gwynedd.
Have all Welsh language national institutions be in Aberystwyth and perhaps the Assembly as well.

With the Fro safe and sound I think that rather than have Welsh be compulsory outside the Fro, have it be optional but allow both WM students and English medium Welsh learners to spend a 'year abroad' in the fro for total immersion in year 9.

By the way, when did Bangor, Holyhead, Aberystwyth, Barmouth, Carmarthen and Llandudno get anglicised?
 
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How about this ATL:
No RAF base on Anglesey.
Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Porthmadog-Bangor lines stay open
Only one University in the Fro Cymraeg, and have all non-lecturer staff be Welsh speaking, and have 70% of students be in Welsh Medium courses.
As soon as there is any sign of somewhere becoming too popular and expensive, have the council intervene immediately.
Encourage large employers, such as Outward Bound in Aberdyfi to hire local people.
Have all schools be Welsh medium in the Fro. This would serve to ensure that incoming English speaking children obtain fluency, if they don't simply pick it up, like a linguistic safety net.
Industries are important. Have the fishing industry survive but have ones like Aluminium smelting etc on Anglesey be a substitute for slate in Gwynedd.
Have all Welsh language national institutions be in Aberystwyth and perhaps the Assembly as well.
You forgot setting up regional studios of Welsh-language radio and television station, as well as bureaus of Welsh-language newspapers.
 
How about closing down the Cambrian line east of Machynlleth but keeping the Carmarthen-aberystwyth and Porthmadog-Bangor lines open?
 
How about closing down the Cambrian line east of Machynlleth but keeping the Carmarthen-aberystwyth and Porthmadog-Bangor lines open?

Hi, I'm also from Aberystwyth.

Closing the Cambrian Line would be an economic disaster and would be hugely unpopular, nor would is it likely that the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Porthmadog-Bangor lines would remain open if the Cambrian goes. Put simply, the Cambrian closes, then Wales loses all its lines outside the valleys and north coast. Which means more economic decline in the heartlands.

Keeping the Carmarthen-Aberystwyth line open would be beneficial. I'm not so sure the Porthmadog-Bangor line would be of benefit, although it wouldn't hurt either. That line was always marginal and once the buses start it is probably doomed.

I can't see Aberystwyth being the Assembly seat in any plausible scenario - or rather, the seat of a united Welsh assembly. If a decision is made to split Wales into a northern and southern assembly, then it could work but nationalism, so that idea is invalid.

I think to keep the heartland strong:

i) An earlier and more powerful Welsh (or North Welsh) Assembly which is able to keep the economy of the mining areas going, while also building up tourism and other sectors.

ii) Expand the Welsh language provisions to make it compulsory for private and public organizations to be bi-lingual.

iii) Improve Welsh language teaching for incomers and publicize it a lot more. I've learnt more Welsh just from looking at signposts and such like than any of the language courses on offer. Perhaps also offer extra credit for university students at Bangor and Aberystwyth, perhaps to the point where it is pretty much expected for all students to take a module in the Welsh language.

iv) Enforce a super-council tax on all second homes.

v) Improve transport links in rural areas, particularly rural buses. Maybe commission the heritage railways (Llangollen, Welsh Highland, Ffestinog etc...) to provide commuter/discounted services. [The Welsh Highland Railway already does this.) Keeping the North Anglesey Railway open would also be beneficial.

vi) Plaid Cymru need to lose their clannish attitude sooner. While blaming the students for losing Ceredigion is probably popular among the base, it also leads to a net loss of support. Especially as the politically active students are disproportionately in favour of Welsh independence and supportive (in theory) of the Welsh language. Having Plaid be a more inclusive party earlier would definitely help the language and support for it among the incomers.

*

I'm personally of the opinion that these proposals would reduce but not halt the decline of the Welsh language, because minority languages are in decline across the globe (the only that is going to save them is universal translators IMO). Furthermore, Wales and England are far too inter-connected for there not to be cultural osmosis, and unless you drastically alter the power-balance between the two countries, it is going to be biased towards England.

teg
 
Incomers have certainly made a massive difference, see Cymuned for further details. I have been to Porthmadog recently and in both cases the teenagers and young adults were mostly speaking Welsh but in this bar, everyone else seemed to be Incomers or tourists. Y felinheli, in 10 years seems to have been massively anglicised, though as of yet not entirely and I don't know how many English speakers were actually tourists.

How about this ATL:
No RAF base on Anglesey.
Carmarthen-Aberystwyth and Porthmadog-Bangor lines stay open
Only one University in the Fro Cymraeg, and have all non-lecturer staff be Welsh speaking, and have 70% of students be in Welsh Medium courses.
As soon as there is any sign of somewhere becoming too popular and expensive, have the council intervene immediately.
Encourage large employers, such as Outward Bound in Aberdyfi to hire local people.
Have all schools be Welsh medium in the Fro. This would serve to ensure that incoming English speaking children obtain fluency, if they don't simply pick it up, like a linguistic safety net.
Industries are important. Have the fishing industry survive but have ones like Aluminium smelting etc on Anglesey be a substitute for slate in Gwynedd.
Have all Welsh language national institutions be in Aberystwyth and perhaps the Assembly as well.

With the Fro safe and sound I think that rather than have Welsh be compulsory outside the Fro, have it be optional but allow both WM students and English medium Welsh learners to spend a 'year abroad' in the fro for total immersion in year 9.

By the way, when did Bangor, Holyhead, Aberystwyth, Barmouth, Carmarthen and Llandudno get anglicised?

So basically turn all of North and West Wales into a safari park for "real Welsh" financed by the rest of the UK (including South Wales)?
 
So basically turn all of North and West Wales into a safari park for "real Welsh" financed by the rest of the UK (including South Wales)?

Safari park? In what way would those proposals lead to that? Is Flanders a Flemish language Safari park? Lovely expression but I don't see how it would best describe an intact heartland?
 
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But obviously not quite enough. :D It's Yr Iaith, not Yr Iath and it mutates c->g, so it would be Yr Iaith Gymraeg.

Treigladau is advanced stuff for learners;)

If you had wanted to preserve 1961 levels then some of the things that needed to be addressed were:

Language of education - primary and secondary education through the medium of Welsh. Currently most primary schools in the relevant area outside towns are Welsh medium but most of the larger primaries in towns are English language, while secondary is mixed. There is no problem with children starting primary school with no Welsh, they pick it up quickly while their monglot parents on the PTA or governors are more of a problem as they change the language used in meetings.

Welsh language media, especially radio and television

Language of government and commerce - use of Welsh language in local government and utilities

Reduce population inflows - major issues are large construction projects, military bases ( eg Valley, Aberporth, Brawdy), tourism - second homes and caravan parks

Reduce population outflows - mechanisation of farming, fishing etc

There are a few political and cultural impediments to this:

- industrial South Wales is generally anti-Welsh language, and makes up the majority of the population of Wales, so even devolved Welsh institutions don't necessarily see the language as important
- it is difficult to limit the changes to the rural economy that drive the change from fisherman's and farm worker's cottages to second homes
- Welsh was seen as historical and limiting - the ambitious learned English and moved away

Aberystwyth is not that anglicised - we have a Starbucks with a Welsh language menu (although the staff struggle with orders in Welsh).
 
Safari park? In what way would those proposals lead to that? Is Flanders a Flemish language Safari park? Lovely expression but I don't see how it would best describe an intact heartland?

Flanders has an entire country next door to it which speaks the same language. Wales not so much.

You are proposing a way to isolate / "protect" a people from themselves. prevent all those nasty outside influences from disturbing the true culture of Wales.

I think a safari park or game reserve is an apt analogy to the situation you are trying to create in the "heartland".
 
Treigladau is advanced stuff for learners;)

If you had wanted to preserve 1961 levels then some of the things that needed to be addressed were:

Language of education - primary and secondary education through the medium of Welsh. Currently most primary schools in the relevant area outside towns are Welsh medium but most of the larger primaries in towns are English language, while secondary is mixed. There is no problem with children starting primary school with no Welsh, they pick it up quickly while their monglot parents on the PTA or governors are more of a problem as they change the language used in meetings.

Welsh language media, especially radio and television

Language of government and commerce - use of Welsh language in local government and utilities

Reduce population inflows - major issues are large construction projects, military bases ( eg Valley, Aberporth, Brawdy), tourism - second homes and caravan parks

Reduce population outflows - mechanisation of farming, fishing etc

There are a few political and cultural impediments to this:

- industrial South Wales is generally anti-Welsh language, and makes up the majority of the population of Wales, so even devolved Welsh institutions don't necessarily see the language as important
- it is difficult to limit the changes to the rural economy that drive the change from fisherman's and farm worker's cottages to second homes
- Welsh was seen as historical and limiting - the ambitious learned English and moved away

Aberystwyth is not that anglicised - we have a Starbucks with a Welsh language menu (although the staff struggle with orders in Welsh).
Apparently in 2011, only 32% of people in Aberystwyth could speak Welsh. I'd love to know the census figures for the town since 1891 and when the language became a minority there.
I wonder, if as well as surviving as the vernacular of the towns folk, it was the first language and medium of instruction of 50-70% of the students and the first language of the catering staff, how many non-Welsh speaking students would be signed up on Welsh courses? Would most want to 'fit in', or would the argument 'everybody speaks English so why bother' prevail?
 
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Languages_of_the_United_Kingdom


Languages_of_the_United_Kingdom
 
Flanders has an entire country next door to it which speaks the same language. Wales not so much.

You are proposing a way to isolate / "protect" a people from themselves. prevent all those nasty outside influences from disturbing the true culture of Wales.

I think a safari park or game reserve is an apt analogy to the situation you are trying to create in the "heartland".

Protect them from 'themselves'? What do you mean by protecting them from themselves. No this ATL would have protected them from/ helped the protect themselves from a)being forced to leave their beloved country for economic reasons and thus allowing them to keep their language alive.
 
Protect them from 'themselves'? What do you mean by protecting them from themselves. No this ATL would have protected them from/ helped the protect themselves from a)being forced to leave their beloved country for economic reasons and thus allowing them to keep their language alive.

Well, one of the proposals on this thread was to resist the mechanisation of agriculture and fishing. This amounts to preserving much of rural Wales as a museum of subsistence farming, which is terribly picturesque, but (without massive subsidy or a totally different set of industrial/agricultural policies across Europe since WW2), is going to leave the population grindingly poor.

Encouraging employers to hire locals would help, definitely. But for the more skilled / high-tech employers, that runs directly counter to the goal of not having big, bilingual universities. Even an aluminium plant can probably use skilled industrial chemists, and back in the day Bangor was quite good at those.

Taxing second homes and discouraging industries/developments which will require scads of incomers are all well and good (particularly the former), but what are you replacing them with as sources of employment? Having whatever devolved institutions exist located somewhere outside SE Wales would help, but the people of Cardiff and Swansea would be understandably irate - they'd be paying the freight.

Does better transport to England help preserve Welsh at all? Better transport (especially public transport) within North Wales would be lovely, but linking the whole better to e.g. Birmingham might be counterproductive.
 
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