your thoughts please

firesoul · Jun 8, 2015

the effect on the course of WWII if the Heinkel He 280 had gone into active development and revived the aproval of the german air ministry with requsite incrreases in research and development funding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_280

Of particular interest are your thoughts on how quickly it could have got into front-line service given that the ME262 which did get support even if it flew a year latter took till 1944 to get into service. Your thoughts on the RAF reaction to the earlier introduction of jets by the Germans would be of interest to.

Delta Force · Jun 8, 2015

firesoul said:
the effect on the course of WWII if the Heinkel He 280 had gone into active development and revived the aproval of the german air ministry with requsite incrreases in research and development funding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_280

Of particular interest are your thoughts on how quickly it could have got into front-line service given that the ME262 which did get support even if it flew a year latter took till 1944 to get into service. Your thoughts on the RAF reaction to the earlier introduction of jets by the Germans would be of interest to.

It looks like it had engine development problems, which doesn't bode well since the primary advance of jet aircraft is jet engines.

Also, the He 280 might not be used as a fighter or interceptor. The first role for the Me 262 was an attack jet.

Just Leo · Jun 8, 2015

Anselm Franz worked for Junkers, and it turned out that he was a whiz at gas turbines, and quite speedy too. He made engines for the 262, not the 280, so they entered service first. In the United States, a whole generation of combat aircraft got whacked when Westinghouse's tech department didn't deliver the goods, on time, or ever. That's the way the world goes round.

Riain · Jun 8, 2015

All jet aircraft of WW2 were held up by their engines, earlier engines means earlier jet aircraft since aircraft design for jets held little that couldn't be dealt with.

Perhaps if the HeS30 and HeS8 were developed they would have been ready before the BMW 003 and Jumo 004 and the He280 could have seen service. However the Me262 undertook its first jet flight in July 1942 so if engines were available earlier so to would the Me262.

thaddeus · Jun 8, 2015

have never understood (or not aware of) the politics that Heinkel was NOT developing a jet?

even if they were charged with being the "bomber" company?

Heinkel 234 "Blitz" not Arado (they did develop a project that recycled many parts from AR-234 theirs designated 343 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heinkel_He_343)

firesoul · Jun 9, 2015

Thank you all

from what I gather it had a lot to do with Nazi belief in natural selection by competition and that Willy Messerschmitt was a party loyalist from near the beginning

I understand the engines where the perennial issue with early jets in general and beyond just getting them to work at all there was often a further one with getting them to projuce the power levels that they where expected to

I did not know about Anselem Franz and Junkers so I will look into that one and see what I can make of it

Michele · Jun 9, 2015

Riain said:
All jet aircraft of WW2 were held up by their engines, earlier engines means earlier jet aircraft since aircraft design for jets held little that couldn't be dealt with.

I thought that wing and airframe design for supersonic speeds did harbor some unforeseen difficulties for early designers. But I might be wrong.

Delta Force · Jun 9, 2015

Michele said:
I thought that wing and airframe design for supersonic speeds did harbor some unforeseen difficulties for early designers. But I might be wrong.

The first generation jets didn't get close to encountering the transonic issues, at least in level flight. There were still some issues even after the sound barrier was broken though, such as developing afterburner technology and area ruling.

zoomar · Jun 9, 2015

As others have said, engine development would have delayed the operational debut of the He 280 so that it really wouldn't be available in quantity much earlier than the Me 262.

Also, there is a lot on unsubstantiated conspiracy talk around Heinkel whenever the discussion of the He 112, He 100, and He 280 come up. The fact is that, in all three instances the RLM probably made the overall best decision, technically, when supporting the Bf 109 and Me 262 instead of competing Heinkel aircraft.

Riain · Jun 9, 2015

Delta Force said:
The first generation jets didn't get close to encountering the transonic issues, at least in level flight. There were still some issues even after the sound barrier was broken though, such as developing afterburner technology and area ruling.

That's correct, the long nacelles on the Meteor are a good example how WW2 aerodynamic problems such as compressibility were readily dealt with. The Me262 got swept wings to deal with Centre of Gravity problems.

Delta Force · Jun 9, 2015

Riain said:
That's correct, the long nacelles on the Meteor are a good example how WW2 aerodynamic problems such as compressibility were readily dealt with. The Me262 got swept wings to deal with Centre of Gravity problems.

Breaking the sound barrier itself was done with brute force for the Bell X-1. It used a powerful rocket engine, and apparently the fuselage was modeled after a .50 BMG round, because they knew it could break the sound barrier. Because of this it experienced significant control problems at transonic speeds.

Riain · Jun 9, 2015

Delta Force said:
Breaking the sound barrier itself was done with brute force for the Bell X-1. It used a powerful rocket engine, and apparently the fuselage was modeled after a .50 BMG round, because they knew it could break the sound barrier. Because of this it experienced significant control problems at transonic speeds.

Yes, but there were no ground-breaking construction methods used in the likes of the Meteor or Me262, the Vampire even incorporated wood in its construction. Sure they encountered some new problems such as CoG in both 262 and Meteor but these were fixed easily enough.

Just Leo · Jun 9, 2015

Heinkel was quick to design and manufacture, and the RLM was quick to issue a production contract for the Volksjaeger, a fighter, albeit at a time when bomber construction had been terminated.

firesoul · Jun 11, 2015

to summerise so far

The rate limiting step with introduction would have been engine related, either power, production or life (wear and tear)

The best that could be hoped is that the He 280 got into service a little earlier than the 262 but not so much as to make a difference so weeks possibly a couple of months

The opinion of the forum so far is that the Me262 was likely the better aircraft of the two

The Aircraft would be fast subsonic, faster than the fastest piston engined planes but still clear of the sound barrier by enough for approaching it in normal flight wouldn't happen.

all great stuff and thank you for your thoughts as I am part way into working up a time line where all this will be very relevant and all the research in the world make more sense with a third person view of the topic in mind

Riain · Jun 11, 2015

In 1942 or so the jet pioneers weren't worried about power or service life, rather they were worrying about whether these engines would run at all.

bsmart · Jun 11, 2015

Why does anyone think that any single weapon would have that much effect on the total war? The war was determined by larger issues such as the nation-states ability to effectively marshal all its resources and use the effectively to reach a goal.

zoomar · Jun 11, 2015

bsmart said:
Why does anyone think that any single weapon would have that much effect on the total war? The war was determined by larger issues such as the nation-states ability to effectively marshal all its resources and use the effectively to reach a goal.

Spoilsport.

Riain · Jun 11, 2015

bsmart said:
Why does anyone think that any single weapon would have that much effect on the total war? The war was determined by larger issues such as the nation-states ability to effectively marshal all its resources and use the effectively to reach a goal.

Obviously being cool is an important military resource.

firesoul · Jun 12, 2015

True

I did the course on that years ago but I am sure that all that's changed since is the details. However that's not what I am after here the course of the war would be the same no doubt but the details would be different and in an interesting and entertaining way.

All my reading of WWII history suggest that the only way Germany was going to win was by forcing an armistice in 1940 on the UK after the fall of France beyond that it was going to be a grinding match of attrition which the British would win in the end. The British empire was too strong, the entry of the Japanese into the war changed the balance a bit but that was always going to draw the Americans in as an active rather than passive combatant and that was more than a counterweight to any thing the Japanese could add to the combined axis effort.

Invading the soviet union simply speeded the arrival of the inevitable result up, Russia is always the tar baby of history

The TL I had in mind would focus on the changes more and earlier German emphasis on jets might have on the detail of that arc of history.