Your own Spitfire wank

The Spitfire in Portuguese Service

Parts of Post 133
15 Portugal which were ordered on 23.02.39. The order was accompanied by an advanced payment. See under Turkey for more details.
According to the Putnams on Supermarine aircraft 30 Spitfires (P9547, P9553 to P9561 & P9565 to P9584) were removed from Supermarine's third production contract to be completed as Type 341 Spitfires.
  • It looks like they were to be the 15 aircraft ordered by Portugal and the 15 complete aircraft ordered by Turkey.
  • 2 were delivered to Turkey (P9566 & P9567 above).
  • 11 (formerly P9547, P9553 to P9561 & P9565) were converted back to RAF standard on the production line and delivered with their original serials.
  • 17 (formerly P9568 to P9584) weren't built.
According to Green & Fricker (Pages 230 & 231) Portugal was supplied with Curtiss Hawk 75A (Mohawk), Hurricanes and Spitfires later in the war, but they did not say how many. They also wrote that Portugal ordered 30 Gloster Gladiators, a number of Hawker Hinds, Junkers Ju86K bombers & Breda Ba.65s in 1937. However, Portugal was only supplied with 15 Gladiators Mk II which were taken from the RAF's last production contract which was for 300 aircraft and was let in 1938 as part of Expansion Scheme L.

ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production being moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940. Therefore, 30 Spitfires were supplied in 1939 which comprised 15 instead of the 15 Gladiators Mk II and the OTL contract for 15 Spitfires that was cancelled.

ITTL the British Government could have supplied substitutes for the Ju86Ks and Ba.65s. This would in part be to bolster Britain's oldest ally and its policy of strengthening the nations of Europe's resistance against Axis pressure. It would also be a form of economic warfare waged on the Axis powers by reducing the turnover of the Axis aircraft firms & thus their Governments' tax revenues and stopping Germany from earning foreign currency that they could use to buy raw materials.

FWIW I lived in Lisbon in 2003 and I came across an English language book about the Spitfire in Portuguese service and I think it was called "Spitfires under God's Cross".
 
Part of Post 100.

From the Chapter "Everybody wants the Spitfire" in "Spitfire: The History" by Eric B. Morgan and Edward Shacklady

"On 17th November 1938 the Foreign Office wrote to the Chief of the Air Staff listing the preferred countries in order of priority, with France heading that list."

View attachment 876464

According to the text of the chapter, these are the countries that expressed an interest in buying Spitfires before June 1940 (when the contracts were cancelled) in alphabetical order. Also note that the dates my not be 100% correct, because the original document wasn't 100% clear on the dates.
  • Belgium was awaiting permission for a licence to build by August 1938.
    • The text of the book didn't say when Belgium first expressed interest in buying Spitfires.
    • However, the table said they wanted 15-45 with 28.09.38 with the date of the quote.
  • 12 Bulgaria. The wanted to buy 5 in January 1938 and increased their order to 12 later in the year. Except, I think it was a typo for January 1939 because of where it appears in the text.
  • China had asked for quotes by May 1939 but the book didn't have any quantities.
  • 18 Egypt. They asked for quotes on the delivery of 18 Spitfires or 18 Hurricanes early in 1937.
  • 12 Estonia on 02.03.39 a firm contract to Order No. C.186/39.
  • Finland has asked for quotes by May 1939 but the book didn't have any quantities.
  • France one aircraft delivered 18.07.39. This was production aircraft No. 251 and wasn't taken from a RAF contract.
    • However, in early 1938 the French Government was interested in the delivery of 100 Spitfires by September 1939 and in obtaining a manufacturing licence.
    • They also asked for 3 for evaluation purposes, but only one was delivered. This was the aircraft delivered on 18.07.39.
  • 24 Greece.
    • They asked for 12 in November 1938 and this had increased to a firm order for 24 aircraft on 22.03.39.
    • This contract was cancelled in October 1939, despite a promise to deliver 12 by December 1939 and the remaining 12 in early 1940.
    • However, in May 1939 Greece wanted to double its existing order from 24 to 48.
  • Iceland. Believe it or not in May 1939 their government expressed permission in purchasing a second-hand Spitfire for instructional purposes.
  • 24 Iran. The order was placed in November 1938 but never followed up their latest enquiry and it had to be cancelled.
  • Japan asked for one Spitfire early in 1937.
  • 12 Latvia.
    • They asked to buy 14 on 12.03.37. This was never allotted a priority number and as the order was never confirmed by the Air Ministry it lapsed.
    • However, in January 1938 they forwarded an enquiry on delivery times. Except, I think it was a typo for January 1939 because of where it appears in the text.
    • This suddenly firmed into an order for 12 aircraft on 24.05.39.
  • 41 Netherlands. They asked to buy one and build 40 under licence in January 1938 and by August 1938 were awaiting permission for a licence to build.
  • Norway had asked for quotes by May 1939 but the source doesn't say how many aircraft they wanted to buy.
  • 15 Portugal which were ordered on 23.02.39. The order was accompanied by an advanced payment. See under Turkey for more details.
  • The table included a quote for 10 aircraft dated 29.03.38 for Romania, but it isn't mentioned in the text.
  • 12 Sweden. The country wanted to place an order on 12.05.39 for 12 for immediate delivery.
  • 30 or 40 Switzerland. The source isn't clear on dates, but it looks like:
    • The Swiss Government first asked for 3 aircraft.
    • This was increased to 15 plus the opportunity to licence-build at a later date and by August 1938 was awaiting permission for a licence to build.
    • In May 1939 the order was increased from 15 to 30 or 40 aircraft with delivery scheduled for 1940, but they wanted 3 delivered before the end of 1939.
  • 60 Turkey.
    • An initial order for 15 aircraft was received by August 1938.
    • This was replaced on 19.01.39 by a revised order for 60 consisting of 15 complete airframes, 45 sets of components and 16 spare engines.
    • The Turkish Spitfires were to form four squadrons of 3 flights each .
    • 2 aircraft were delivered in June 1940. They were taken from an RAF contract and their former serials were P9566 & P9567.
    • They may have been required by the RAF in late 1942 and given the serials HK854 & HK856.
    • According to the Putnams on Supermarine aircraft 30 Spitfires (P9547, P9553 to P9561 & P9565 to P9584) were removed from Supermarine's third production contract to be completed as Type 341 Spitfires.
      • It looks like they were to be the 15 aircraft ordered by Portugal and the 15 complete aircraft ordered by Turkey.
      • 2 were delivered to Turkey (P9566 & P9567 above).
      • 11 (formerly P9547, P9553 to P9561 & P9565) were converted back to RAF standard on the production line and delivered with their original serials.
      • 17 (formerly P9568 to P9584) weren't built.
  • 42 Yugoslavia.
    • They asked for 30 Hurricanes or Spitfires on 28.01.37. This was the first overseas enquiry for Spitfires and was part of a blanket order for the Blenheim, Spitfire, Battle and Hind.
    • They were awaiting permission for a licence to build by August 1938.
    • In January 1938 they were asking for a firm delivery date for the 12 aircraft and for permission to build 30 under licence. Except, I think it was a typo for January 1939 because of where it appears in the text.
    • Yugoslavia eventually ordered 12 Blenheims & Hurricanes plus a request for a licence to build.
It's likely that any aircraft that had been delivered would have been taken for RAF contracts for the Spitfire. This was the case with the Hurricanes that were exported before the summer of 1940 and so were many of the Gladiators that were exported.
Greece placed an initial order for 12 aircraft, followed by an order for 12 more after the British treasury finally decided to agree to a 2 million pounds loan for military orders in 1939. Till then Greek military orders to Britain were being hampered by foreign currency not being freely convertible in the aftermath of 1929. Frex Greece had a large surplus in German marks from her exports of tobacco to Germany but said marks could not be used to buy arms in Britain or France. Which led a few years later to the Greeks fighting the Germans and Italians with mostly German made Anti-aircraft guns for example.
 
The Spitfire in Yugoslav Service

Part of Post 133.
42 Yugoslavia.
  • They asked for 30 Hurricanes or Spitfires on 28.01.37. This was the first overseas enquiry for Spitfires and was part of a blanket order for the Blenheim, Spitfire, Battle and Hind.
  • They were awaiting permission for a licence to build by August 1938.
  • In January 1938 they were asking for a firm delivery date for the 12 aircraft and for permission to build 30 under licence. Except, I think it was a typo for January 1939 because of where it appears in the text.
  • Yugoslavia eventually ordered 12 Blenheims & Hurricanes plus a request for a licence to build.
From Pages P.331 & 332 of Green & Fricker
  • In 1935 plans were prepared for the re-equipment and modernisation of the fighter squadrons.
  • A few D.500 purchased from France and Hawker Furies ordered from the UK & Ikarus was to build the Fury under licence with a H-S engine.
  • Prototype IK-1 and a small series of the improved IK-2 build later.
  • As tensions increased Do17s, SM79s and Blenhiems were ordered along with Hawker Hurricanes for the fighter squadrons.
  • 1937 licence production of the Do17 began and design of the IK-3 monoplane fighter began & its prototype flew in 1938.
  • Not clear if 1937 or 1938 but tooling up for licence production of the Hurricane and Blenheim began. The first licence built Hurricane was delivered in June 1939.
  • In 1940 the British government (to strengthen the Balkan Entente against Germany) transferred a number of Hurricanes and about half a dozen Lysanders. 10 Curtiss P-40B Tomahawks were to have been sent too, but these were later diverted to the UK.
  • Yugoslavia also received 12 Bf108 & 73 Bf109E-3 from Germany.
  • Do215A bombers were ordered in 1939 but the aircraft were taken over by the Luftwaffe.
  • In April 1941 it had 8 air regiments with 48 squadrons and a paper strength of 400 first-line aeroplanes.
  • 70 Bf109E3, 30 Hurricane, 30 Fury & 5 IK-2 fighters, 17 Do17K, 40 SM.79 & 50 Blenheim I bombers and 10 Ca310 & 30 Br19 recce aircraft.
The Yugoslav Hurricanes were taken from Hawker's first production contract (for 600 aircraft let in June 1936). They were delivered in 2 batches of 12 aircraft. The first batch was delivered from December 1938 and the second batch from February 1940.

ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production being moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940.

The TTL version of Green & Fricker would have read as follows.
  • In 1935 plans were prepared for the re-equipment and modernisation of the fighter squadrons.
  • A few D.500 purchased from France and Hawker Furies ordered from the UK & Ikarus was to build the Fury under licence with a H-S engine.
  • Prototype IK-1 and a small series of the improved IK-2 build later.
  • As tensions increased Do17s, SM79s and Twin Battles were ordered along with Supermarine Spitfires for the fighter squadrons.
    • I know from other sources that 12 Hurricanes were ordered IOTL so 12 Spitfires were ordered ITTL.
  • 1937 licence production of the Do17 began and design of the IK-3 monoplane fighter began & its prototype flew in 1938.
  • Not clear if 1937 or 1938 but tooling up for licence production of the Spitfire and Twin Battle began. The first licence built Spitfire was delivered in June 1939.
  • In 1940 the British government (to strengthen the Balkan Entente against Germany) transferred a number of Hurricanes and about half a dozen Lysanders. 10 Curtiss P-40B Tomahawks were to have been sent too, but these were later diverted to the UK.
    • I know from other sources that 12 Hurricanes were supplied IOTL so about 28 Spitfires were supplied instead of the Hurricanes, Lysanders and Tomahawks.
  • Yugoslavia also received 85 aircraft from Great Britain (including 73 Spitfires) in place of the 12 Bf108 & 73 Bf109E-3 from Germany as part of its effort to strengthen the Balkan Entente against Germany and its effort to deny the Axis foreign currency with which it could have imported raw materials.
  • More Twin Battle bombers were ordered in 1939 but the aircraft were taken over by the RAF.
  • In April 1941 it had 8 air regiments with 48 squadrons and a paper strength of 400 first-line aeroplanes
  • 100 Spitfires, 30 Fury & 5 IK-2 fighters, 17 Do17K, 40 SM.79 & 50 Twin Battle bombers and 10 Twin Battle & 30 Br19 recce aircraft. There might have been British substitutes for the Do17Ks and SM.79s.
 
Greece placed an initial order for 12 aircraft, followed by an order for 12 more after the British treasury finally decided to agree to a 2 million pounds loan for military orders in 1939. Till then Greek military orders to Britain were being hampered by foreign currency not being freely convertible in the aftermath of 1929. Frex Greece had a large surplus in German marks from her exports of tobacco to Germany but said marks could not be used to buy arms in Britain or France. Which led a few years later to the Greeks fighting the Germans and Italians with mostly German made Anti-aircraft guns for example.
I'm having a blonde moment with that because my post said that Greece ordered 24 Spitfires. I don't know whether you're supporting me by providing more detail about the order or didn't notice what I wrote and are saying "there was this order too".
24 Greece.
  • They asked for 12 in November 1938 and this had increased to a firm order for 24 aircraft on 22.03.39.
  • This contract was cancelled in October 1939, despite a promise to deliver 12 by December 1939 and the remaining 12 in early 1940.
  • However, in May 1939 Greece wanted to double its existing order from 24 to 48.
 
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The Spitfire in Turkish Service

From Post 133.
60 Turkey.
  • An initial order for 15 aircraft was received by August 1938.
  • This was replaced on 19.01.39 by a revised order for 60 consisting of 15 complete airframes, 45 sets of components and 16 spare engines.
  • The Turkish Spitfires were to form four squadrons of 3 flights each .
  • 2 aircraft were delivered in June 1940. They were taken from an RAF contract and their former serials were P9566 & P9567.
  • They may have been required by the RAF in late 1942 and given the serials HK854 & HK856.
  • According to the Putnams on Supermarine aircraft 30 Spitfires (P9547, P9553 to P9561 & P9565 to P9584) were removed from Supermarine's third production contract to be completed as Type 341 Spitfires.
    • It looks like they were to be the 15 aircraft ordered by Portugal and the 15 complete aircraft ordered by Turkey.
    • 2 were delivered to Turkey (P9566 & P9567 above).
    • 11 (formerly P9547, P9553 to P9561 & P9565) were converted back to RAF standard on the production line and delivered with their original serials.
    • 17 (formerly P9568 to P9584) weren't built.
So Turkey was the only one of two nations that received Spitfires in the early part of the war and only received 2 of the 60 that were wanted.

From Post 281 of Green & Fricker.
  • In 1937 Turkey ordered 30 He111D and similar quantities of Bristol Blenheim Mk I and Martin 139W.
  • In 1938 Turkey ordered 30 Westland Lysanders and an unspecified quantity of Avro Anson light bombers, Hawker Hurricane fighters and additional quantities of Bristol Blenheim I bombers.
  • The Turkish Government had ordered 40 Grumman G.23 from Canada in 1937 but they were delivered to Republican Spain.
  • Despite Britain's own pressing needs, many RAF aircraft were handed over to the Turkish Air Force 1939-40.
    • Including Hawker Hurricane Mk I, Curtiss Tomahawk IIB, Fairey Battles and Airspeed Oxford trainers.
    • France also supplied a number of M.S.406 fighters.
  • And the air force was expanded to five regiments plus one reconnaissance & four fighter groups.
  • They don't mention the order for 15 Spitfires that were ordered from Supermarine and that they wanted to assemble 45 in Turkey or that 2 Spitfires were actually delivered.
ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production being moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940.

Therefore, I foresee no problem with supplying Turkey with the balance of the 60 aircraft in the revised order of 19.01.39 and 30 Spitfires instead of the 30 Lysanders that Green & Fricker ordered in 1938 plus a one-to-one substitution of Sptifires for the Hurricanes ordered in 1938 and the Hurricanes & Tomahawks supplied 1939-40. It would also be able to supply Spitfires as a one-to-one substitution for the M.S.406s supplied by France, but in common with the French aircraft supplied to other nations my guess is that they would still have been supplied them because the French Government would want to be seen to be helping its allies.

Furthermore, Twin Battles would have been supplied in place of OTL's Blenheims and Battles. The British Government might offer 30 additional Twin Battles at a discounted price to stop Turkey buying the 30 He111Ds and earning foreign currency that could be used to buy raw materials from Turkey.
 
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Greece placed an initial order for 12 aircraft, followed by an order for 12 more after the British treasury finally decided to agree to a 2 million pounds loan for military orders in 1939. Till then Greek military orders to Britain were being hampered by foreign currency not being freely convertible in the aftermath of 1929. Frex Greece had a large surplus in German marks from her exports of tobacco to Germany but said marks could not be used to buy arms in Britain or France. Which led a few years later to the Greeks fighting the Germans and Italians with mostly German made Anti-aircraft guns for example.
My information is that Greece cancelled the order in October 1939. Green & Fricker said that Greece had 9 MB.151 fighters when war broke out with Italy and Wikipedia says that Greece ordered 25 MB.151s of which 9 were delivered before France surrendered. Does that mean that the MB.151 order replaced the cancelled order for Spitfires.
 
The Spitfire in Romanian service

Part of Post 133.

According to Page 235 of Green & Fricker's "The Air Forces of the World".
  • Early 1940 Britain supplied 14 Blenheim I bombers and some Hawker Hurricanes & France a number of Potez 63.2 fighter-bombers to strengthen the Balkan Entente's resistance to German pressure.
    • According to another source that I have Romania was supplied with 12 Hurricanes which were taken from Hawker's first production contract (for 600 aircraft let in June 1936) and they were delivered from 28.08.39
  • Romania joined the Axis on 23.11.40 and Luftwaffe supplied a squadron of He112B (previously turned down by the Luftwaffe), 40 Bf109E and 11 He111H-3.
    • Gunston in "An Illustrated Guide to German, Italain and Japanese Fighters of World War II" says that Romania received 24 He112B in 1939.
  • By June 1941 a further 29 Bf109E, a number of Ju87D-2, He114 seaplanes and Fi156C liaison planes had been received.
ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production being moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940. Therefore, Britain could have supplied 36 Spitfires instead of the 12 Hurricanes & 24 He112Bs as part of its measures to strengthen the Balkan Entente's resistance to German pressure. Britain would also have been able to supply 69 Spitfires in place of the 69 Bf109Es, but this was after Romania joined the Axis IOTL and all other things being equal the country still joined the Axis on 23.11.40. If all other things were not equal that would have increased the number of Spitfires to Romania from 36 to 105.

ITTL Britain would have supplied 14 Twin Battles instead of the Blenheims. Britain could have supplied more Twin Battles instead of the Potez 63.2s, but the French Government might want to be seen to be aiding Romania so my guess is that France still supplied the Potez 63.2s. Depending upon the diplomatic and military situations in late 1940 the British Government could have supplied Twin Battles instead of the He111Hs.
NOMISYRRUC your effort and knowledge to write all this stuff is highly admirable.

To comment on something i have a bit of knowledge, ie Romania, the numbers in the book above are inaccurate. Romania received by 1940 inclusive 20 Potez-633B2 (plus iirc 10 in 1941 from Vichy stocks), 40 Blenheims (plus later iirc 3 from yugoslav booty), 12 Hurricane (of 50 ordered), 11 Bf-109E (of 50 ordered, rest delivered in 1941, and later on i think 1942 another 15 or 19 more as replacements), 30 He-112B, 32 He-111H-3. IIrc no He-114 were received until 1944 (the prewar orders was taken over by the germans). No Ju-87Ds were received until 1943. Prewar there were also orders for Ju-87B and Do-215 but were never received.
 
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Supermarine starts to navalize the Spitfire in 1939, creating a proper reinforced landing gear. Seafire comes online in late 1940, and is a very bad suprise to the axis bombers.
FWIW I think there's time to have 98 Seafires built instead of the 98 Sea Gladiators. They entered service with the FAA in December 1938 IIRC. And I think we could give them the praying mantis wings that the Seafire didn't get until 1943. This is wank after all.
 
NOMISYRRUC your effort and knowledge to write all this stuff is highly admirable.

To comment on something I have a bit of knowledge, i.e. Romania, the numbers in the book above are inaccurate. Romania received by 1940 inclusive 20 Potez-633B2 (plus iirc 10 in 1941 from Vichy stocks), 40 Blenheims (plus later IIRC 3 from Yugoslav booty), 12 Hurricane (of 50 ordered), 11 Bf-109E (of 50 ordered, rest delivered in 1941, and later on i think 1942 another 15 or 19 more as replacements), 30 He-112B, 32 He-111H-3. IIRC no He-114 were received until 1944 (the prewar orders was taken over by the Germans). No Ju-87Ds were received until 1943. Prewar there were also orders for Ju-87B and Do-215 but were never received.
In that case I wonder what Green & Fricker got wrong about the other nations that I wrote about. Though most of the books that I use for threads like this don't agree 100% on the number of aircraft (of all types) that were exported. I'm using Green & Fricker as the source because its the easiest one to use for what I want to do.

Using your figures.
  • Although this is a Spitfire wank rather than a Fairey Battle wank.
    • HMG could have supplied 60 Twin Battles in place of the Blenheims & Potez 633s.
    • Which the Germans would have augmented with at least another 13 aircraft that it had captured in France & Yugoslavia.
    • HMG would also have seen that the Twin Battles ordered instead of the Do215s would have been delivered.
    • Romania also purchased the SM.79 from Italy and built some under licence. I think that Britain would have been able to sell Romania an equal number of Twin Battles and a manufacturing licence as part of its effort to help the Balkan nations resist Axis aggression.
    • Similarly, Britain would have provided 32 Twin Battles in place of the He111Hs.
  • Re the fighters.
    • What you wrote about only 12 Hurricanes being delivered out of 50 ordered rings a bell with me.
    • ITTL Britain would have been able to deliver the 50 aircraft that were ordered.
    • What you wrote about 30 He112Bs rings a bell too. Britain would have been able to provide 30 Spitfires.
    • It would also have been able to supply 50 Spitfires in place of the Bf109Es.
    • That would increase the total total number of fighters supplied by the UK from 12 Hurricanes IOTL to 130 Spitfires ITTL.
    • The 15 or 19 Bf109Es that you say Germany supplied as replacements IOTL might have been 15 or 19 captured Spitfires ITTL.
 
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The Spitfire in Greek Service

Part of Post 133.
  • 24 Greece.
  • They asked for 12 in November 1938 and this had increased to a firm order for 24 aircraft on 22.03.39.
  • This contract was cancelled in October 1939, despite a promise to deliver 12 by December 1939 and the remaining 12 in early 1940.
  • However, in May 1939 Greece wanted to double its existing order from 24 to 48.
According to Green & Fricker (Pages 151 & 152)
  • 36 PZL P-24-F were ordered after 1935, but he did not say when they were delivered, but they equipped most of the RHAF's 4 fighter squadrons at the time of the invasion.
  • Greece had also received 9 M.B.151 fighters. Wikipedia says they ordered 25 and that the rest weren't delivered because France fell. This order may have replaced the cancelled order for Spitfires.
  • They also wrote that
    • The RHAF also had 3 light bomber squadrons (one of Bristol Blenheim I, one of Fairey Battles and one of Potez 63s).
    • The RHAF also had 4 army co-operation squadron (one of Hs126s and 3 more with Breguet 19s & Potez 25s.)
    • The Royal Hellenic Navy had 3 incompletely equipped naval co-operation squadrons with 10 Avro Ansons, 10 Dornier 22s and 9 Fairey IIIFs.
    • Two Gloster Gladiators had been presented as a gift.
  • They provided no details of the modern aircraft that were on order (e.g. the Wildcats) or the aircraft received between October 1940 & April 1941. In the latter case one of the RAF squadrons in Greece passed its Gladiators onto the RHAF when it converted to Hurricanes.
ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production being moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940.

Therefore, I think the RHAF could have been supplied with enough Spitfires to re-equip its 4 fighter squadrons and its 4 army co-operations, because ITTL the Greeks would have been following the RAF's example of re-equipping its army co-operation squadrons with fighters and forming flights of "grasshopper" aircraft to perform the AOP and light liaison roles.

Although this is a wank the Spitfire thread and not a wank the Fairey Battle thread the 3 RHAF light bomber squadrons would have been equipped with the Twin Battle ITTL.

According to the Niehorster website (http://niehorster.org/017_britain/41-04_greece/raf_greece.html) there were 10 RAF and 2 FAA squadrons in Greece on 05.04.41.
  • No. 37 Squadron with Wellingtons.
  • Nos. 11, 84, 113 & 211 Squadrons with Blenheim IVs.
  • No. 30 Squadron with Blenheim IF fighters.
  • No. 33 Squadron with Hurricanes.
  • No. 208 Squadron with Hurricanes and Lysanders.
  • Nos. 80 & 112 Squadrons with Gladiators.
  • 805 NAS with Fulmars & Sea Gladiators.
  • 815 NAS with Swordfish.
ITTL substitute the Blenhiems with Twin Battles. the Gladiators, Hurricanes & Lysanders with Spitfires and the Sea Gladiators with Seafires.

The RHAF and RAF won't be able to stop the Axis conquering mainland Greece, but they will make the Luftwaffe and its allies pay a higher price. Unfortunately, having Spitfires defending Crete instead of Hurricanes won't stop the Axis taking Crete either.

Marmaduke Thomas St John Pattle (the RAF's highest scoring ace) fought in the Battle of Greece and that's where most of his 41 kills were made. According to his Wikipedia entry 15 were when he was flying Gladiators and the other 26 were when he was flying Hurricanes. Would is official total have been higher than that had he been flying Spitfires instead? Would he (and some of the other 3 pilots that were killed) have survived the Battle of Athens?
 
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The Do 215 was an export version of the Do 17Z with new engines, but whilst production for orders continued, an export embargo for all aircraft when war broke out ensured none were delivered.
 
The Spitfire in Greek Service

Part of Post 133.

According to Green & Fricker (Pages 151 & 152)
  • 36 PZL P-24-F were ordered after 1935, but he did not say when they were delivered, but they equipped most of the RHAF's 4 fighter squadrons at the time of the invasion.
1936-37. Gladiator was the other candidate for the order here. But the Poles were accepting payment in Greek tobacco and Britain wanted to be paid in pounds, at the very same time the treasury was not agreeing to Greece being granted a loan in order for the Greeks to... have sufficient foreign currency in pounds instead of German marks (or dollars but I get the impression the Greeks were somewhat frustrated by the treasury policy at a time they though war certain...). Greece had already placed orders for British destroyers at the same time as well eating up on their sterling reserves.
  • Greece had also received 9 M.B.151 fighters. Wikipedia says they ordered 25 and that the rest weren't delivered because France fell. This order may have replaced the cancelled order for Spitfires.
This order was an emergency one after with the start of the war Britain refused delivery of the Spitfires already on order. The French initially promised 24 MS.406 then this was switched to MB.151. Would the Greeks still get them if the had received their Spitfires? Arguably yes. After all their plans was for a force of 275 combat aircraft and France had just given them 150 million franks in war credits.
  • They also wrote that
    • The RHAF also had 3 light bomber squadrons (one of Bristol Blenheim I, one of Fairey Battles and one of Potez 63s).
The actual orders were for 24 Blenheims and 24 Potez 63.11. Needless to say the Greeks had wanted back in 1937-38 Benheim in place of Potez 63 but... franks were available and pounds were not. Then with the start of the war the delivery of the last dozen Blenheims and Potez 63s was frozen. Britain delivered 12 Battles in their place and there were discussions to increase the number to 40... France fell before that which also stopped the French delivery of additional Potez 63s.
    • The RHAF also had 4 army co-operation squadron (one of Hs126s and 3 more with Breguet 19s & Potez 25s.)
Also a license to produce Hs.126 the plan was to build 80 to provide a squadron of 16 for each army corps. The Italian invasion stopped that.
    • The Royal Hellenic Navy had 3 incompletely equipped naval co-operation squadrons with 10 Avro Ansons, 10 Dornier 22s and 9 Fairey IIIFs.
    • Two Gloster Gladiators had been presented as a gift.
25 more Gladiators and and IMS a dozen Blenheim I were delivers by Britain during the fighting.
  • They provided no details of the modern aircraft that were on order (e.g. the Wildcats) or the aircraft received between October 1940 & April 1941. In the latter case one of the RAF squadrons in Greece passed its Gladiators onto the RHAF when it converted to Hurricanes.
Roosevelt promised 30 P-40 as military aid to Greece after the Italian invasion. The British mission in Washington did everything in its power to stop this and get the aircraft for the RAF instead. This led to a delay of several months till finally 30 F4F were shipped to Greece in place of the originally promised P-40s only for the German invasion to come a few weeks prior to the delivery. Stupid if you ask me. All the British missions shenanigans accomplished was to delay delivery of aircraft that it did not get itself.

Also in 1941 there were Greek pilots in Habaniyya supposedly training to get Hurricanes, which fought against the Iraqis both on the ground and flying shorties against them. But I have never found anywhere how many Hurricanes and when, Britain planned on delivering.
 
I'm being blond again. I can't tell whether you're supporting me or saying that it can't happen.
1936-37. Gladiator was the other candidate for the order here. But the Poles were accepting payment in Greek tobacco and Britain wanted to be paid in pounds, at the very same time the treasury was not agreeing to Greece being granted a loan in order for the Greeks to... have sufficient foreign currency in pounds instead of German marks (or dollars but I get the impression the Greeks were somewhat frustrated by the treasury policy at a time they though war certain...). Greece had already placed orders for British destroyers at the same time as well eating up on their sterling reserves.
That was a badly worded sentence on my part. It should have been I didn't know when they were ordered and therefore didn't know if Spitfires could have been supplied in their place. My conclusion is that no they couldn't and Greece would still have bought the Polish fighters.

The pair of destroyers you referred to were built by Yarrow, but were armed with German 5in guns and had German fire control equipment. The reference books that I have say it was because British firms couldn't supply them because of the rearmament programme. However, what you have written made me think that the Greek Government bought German because they didn't have enough Pounds Sterling, but did have enough Deutsch Marks.

Greece ordered 4 destroyers from Italy in 1931. Was a shortage of Pounds Sterling why they weren't ordered from British yards?
This order was an emergency one after with the start of the war Britain refused delivery of the Spitfires already on order. The French initially promised 24 MS.406 then this was switched to MB.151. Would the Greeks still get them if the had received their Spitfires? Arguably yes. After all their plans was for a force of 275 combat aircraft and France had just given them 150 million Francs in war credits.
Is that a front-line of 275 combat aircraft or the total including second-line units & reserves? The 11 squadrons the RHAF had IOTL would have had a first-line strength of 132 aircraft at 12 aircraft per squadron and 176 aircraft at 16 aircraft per squadron. So I'm guessing that more squadrons were to have been formed.

As this is a Spitfire wank rather than a MB.151 wank can the 150 million Franc war credit be used to buy army equipment while the British supply another 25 Spitfires (for a total of 125) in place of the MB.151 order? My guess is that the RHAF would want to minimise the number of types it operated for logistical reasons.
The actual orders were for 24 Blenheims and 24 Potez 63.11. Needless to say the Greeks had wanted back in 1937-38 Benheim in place of Potez 63 but... Francs were available and Pounds were not. Then with the start of the war the delivery of the last dozen Blenheims and Potez 63s was frozen. Britain delivered 12 Battles in their place and there were discussions to increase the number to 40... France fell before that which also stopped the French delivery of additional Potez 63s.
The British might not have been able to supply them in 1937-38 anyway IOTL due to priority being given to the RAF. E.g. Australia ordered Hudsons because they were sick of waiting for the Blenheims that it had ordered several years earlier.

There are fewer problems on the production side ITTL so Britain could have supplied 48 Twin Battles in place of the 24 Blenheims & 24 Potez 63s and 40 Twin Battles in place of the 12 of 40 planned OTL-Battles. I think the RHAF would prefer to be operating one model light bomber instead of three for logistical reasons.
Also a license to produce Hs.126 the plan was to build 80 to provide a squadron of 16 for each army corps. The Italian invasion stopped that.
The Hs126 was an equivalent to the Westland Lysander and I'm having Westland build more Spitfires instead of them. Therefore, I'm sticking to the RHAF adopting the TTL version of the RAF's army co-operation doctrine and equip the 4 squadrons with British built Spitfires. However, I'll also sell Greece a licence to build Spitfires instead of the OTL licence to build Hs126s, but in common with OTL the Italian invasion stops them from being built.
25 more Gladiators and and IMS a dozen Blenheim I were delivers by Britain during the fighting.
We may be at cross purposes on that one. My information is that Greece received 2 Gladiators before the Italian invasion. Your information is what was delivered during the fighting and should really have been part of the reply to my next paragraph of my post. ITTL it would have been 25 extra Spitfires (built instead of Gladiators Mk II) and 12 extra Twin Battles.
Roosevelt promised 30 P-40 as military aid to Greece after the Italian invasion. The British mission in Washington did everything in its power to stop this and get the aircraft for the RAF instead. This led to a delay of several months till finally 30 F4F were shipped to Greece in place of the originally promised P-40s only for the German invasion to come a few weeks prior to the delivery. Stupid if you ask me. All the British missions shenanigans accomplished was to delay delivery of aircraft that it did not get itself.
My information is that Greece didn't receive the F4Fs and the RN got them instead, along with the aircraft originally ordered by Belgium and France. ITTL there might be enough Spitfires to supply another 30 to Greece instead of the above orders.

That brings the total to 180. That is
  • 125 delivered before the Italian invasion of Greece:
    • 50 instead of the OTL order for 24 Spitfires, the OTL proposal to increase that to 48 Spitfires and the 2 Gladiators acquired before the Italian invasion.
    • 50 to equip the 4 army co-operation squadrons and includes some purchased instead of the Hs126s imported from Germany IOTL.
    • 25 instead of the OTL order for 25 MB.151s.
  • 25 instead of the Gladiators supplied between 28.10.40 and 05.04.41.
  • 30 instead of the frustrated order for P-40s or F4Fs.
Also in 1941 there were Greek pilots in Habbaniya supposedly training to get Hurricanes, which fought against the Iraqis both on the ground and flying sorties against them. But I have never found anywhere how many Hurricanes and when, Britain planned on delivering.
That's new to me too. FWIW those pilots would have been training on Spitfires ITTL.
 
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I'm being blond again. I can't tell whether you're supporting me or saying that it can't happen.
I'm just providing information. 🙂
That was a badly worded sentence on my part. It should have been I didn't know when they were ordered and therefore didn't know if Spitfires could have been supplied in their place. My conclusion is that no they couldn't and Greece would still have bought the Polish fighters.
If Spitfires were available for export in late 1935 and the British treasury was willing to get its posterior... after all the Greeks problem was not luck of money but luck of money in the proper denominations I have no doubt they would be preferred over P.24. Immediately available for export is the deciding factor here the aircraft were bought in reaction to the Abyssenian crisis.
The pair of destroyers you referred to were built by Yarrow, but were armed with German 5in guns and had German fire control equipment. The reference books that I have say it was because British firms couldn't supply them because of the rearmament programme. However, what you have written made me think that the Greek Government bought German because they didn't have enough Pounds Sterling, but did have enough Deutsch Marks.
Hazemayer fire control from the Dutch actually, for the guns yes British ability to deliver was also a factor. That German instead of frex Swedish guns were preferred afterwards though...
Greece ordered 4 destroyers from Italy in 1931. Was a shortage of Pounds Sterling why they weren't ordered from British yards?
That's in 1931, such problems arise after 1932 globally with clearing agreements, leaving the gold standard and lack of free convertibility between currencies, Greece was not the only one to have such issues. The Italians where chosen at the time because supposedly Britain was not exporting some newer ASDIC version the Greeks wanted, and less supposedly because thanks to state subsidies the Italian yards had offered a much better price per ship. Now one notes the Greeks were looking for new destroyers since at least 1925 and in 1926 had reached a preliminary agreement with either White or Yarrow for four ships, can't remember without checking which of the two, which included a loan to finance it. Well the treasury was against granting the loan because "we'll be seen as arming people "
Is that a front-line of 275 combat aircraft or the total including second-line units & reserves? The 11 squadrons the RHAF had IOTL would have had a first-line strength of 132 aircraft at 12 aircraft per squadron and 176 aircraft at 16 aircraft per squadron. So I'm guessing that more squadrons were to have been formed.
275 was the planned for frontline strength. From very hazy memory this was supposed to include 9 fighter squadrons eventually but I could well remember wrong, should check the books.
As this is a Spitfire wank rather than a MB.151 wank can the 150 million Franc war credit be used to buy army equipment while the British supply another 25 Spitfires (for a total of 125) in place of the MB.151 order? My guess is that the RHAF would want to minimise the number of types it operated for logistical reasons.
The order is in place of Spitfires not being delivered in the first place. It all depends on what Britain and France can actually deliver. Money wise the French war credits are roughly half the 2.04 million war credits Britain has finally provided (with an increase to 3.5 million being sought by both sides) So again if Britain can deliver the 24 Spitfires on order and then promise additional ones in early 1940 the Greeks will go for it and likely not seek alternatives. With the War started the Greeks will take anything made available.
The British might not have been able to supply them in 1937-38 anyway IOTL due to priority being given to the RAF. E.g. Australia ordered Hudsons because the Blenheims that they were sick of waiting for the Blenheims that it had ordered several years earlier.

There are fewer problem on the production side ITTL so Britain could have supplied 48 Twin Battles in place of the 24 Blenheims & 24 Potez 63s and 40 Twin Battles in place of the 12 of 40 planned OTL-Battles. I think the RHAF would prefer to be operating one model light bomber instead of three for logistical reasons.

The Hs126 was an equivalent to the Westland Lysander and I'm having Westland build more Spitfires instead of them. Therefore, I'm sticking to the RHAF adopting the TTL version of the RAF's army co-operation doctrine and equip the 4 squadrons with British built Spitfires. However, I'll also sell Greece a licence to build Spitfires instead of the OTL licence to build Hs126s, but in common with OTL the Italian invasion stops them from being built.
5he Greeks would hardly mind that, they had also bought a license for Potez 63... but where are the engines coming from? The Greeks do have an aircraft factory it was delivering something like 7 aircraft a month in 1939 with preparations to start license producing HS.126 but Merlin engines are only built in Britain at the time. There were plans and an agreement for license production in France mind you...
We may be at cross purposes on that one. My information is that Greece received 2 Gladiators before the Italian invasion. Your information is what was delivered during the fighting and should really have been part of the reply to my next paragraph of my post. ITTL it would have been 25 extra Spitfires (built instead of Gladiators Mk II) and 12 extra Twin Battles.

My information is that Greece didn't receive the F4Fs and the RN got them instead, along with the aircraft originally ordered by Belgium and France. ITTL there might be enough Spitfires to supply another 30 to Greece instead of the above orders.
The country fell before delivery when the aircraft had reached the Red Sea.
That brings the total to 180. That is
  • 125 delivered before the Italian invasion of Greece:
    • 50 instead of the OTL order for 24 Spitfires, the OTL proposal to increase that to 48 Spitfires and the 2 Gladiators acquired before the Italian invasion.
    • 50 to equip the 4 army co-operation squadrons and includes some purchased instead of the Hs126s imported from Germany IOTL.
    • 25 instead of the OTL order for 25 MB.151s.
  • 25 instead of the Gladiators supplied between 28.10.40 and 05.04.41.
  • 30 instead of the frustrated order for P-40s or F4Fs.

That's new to me too. FWIW those pilots would have been training on Spitfires ITTL.
That’s no5 a good TL for the Regia Aeronautica. The best plane they have over Albania is FIAT G50...
 
I'm just providing information. 🙂
Fair enough and thank you, I appreciate it.
If Spitfires were available for export in late 1935 and the British treasury was willing to get its posterior... after all the Greeks problem was not luck of money but luck of money in the proper denominations I have no doubt they would be preferred over P.24. Immediately available for export is the deciding factor here the aircraft were bought in reaction to the Abyssenian crisis.
Although this is a Spitfire wank they won't be available for export in late 1935 because although it's a wank the Spitfire had only just flown ITTL (with a Kestrel engine), the first British production contract won't be let until June 1936 (unless there's an off the drawing board contract in 1935 under Scheme C) and the first delivery to British contracts won't be until the second half of 1937.
Hazemayer fire control from the Dutch actually, for the guns yes British ability to deliver was also a factor. That German instead of frex Swedish guns were preferred afterwards though...
The Hazemayer fire control system? I.e. the one the British copied after seeing it on the Dutch ships that escaped to the UK. Or is it a different one made by the same firm?
That's in 1931, such problems arise after 1932 globally with clearing agreements, leaving the gold standard and lack of free convertibility between currencies, Greece was not the only one to have such issues. The Italians where chosen at the time because supposedly Britain was not exporting some newer ASDIC version the Greeks wanted, and less supposedly because thanks to state subsidies the Italian yards had offered a much better price per ship. Now one notes the Greeks were looking for new destroyers since at least 1925 and in 1926 had reached a preliminary agreement with either White or Yarrow for four ships, can't remember without checking which of the two, which included a loan to finance it. Well the treasury was against granting the loan because "we'll be seen as arming people "
Okay. I thought you'd said it was 1929 earlier in the thread. That's why I didn't mention the submarines Greece bought from France in the 1920s and asked if a lack of currency was was why Greece bought French instead of British.
275 was the planned for frontline strength. From very hazy memory this was supposed to include 9 fighter squadrons eventually but I could well remember wrong, should check the books.
At 12 aircraft a squadron that's about 23 squadrons. If one deducts the 9 fighter squadrons and the 5 army co-operations squadrons you mentioned earlier that leaves 9 bomber squadrons.
The order is in place of Spitfires not being delivered in the first place.
FWIW I knew and I added them anyway.
It all depends on what Britain and France can actually deliver. Money wise the French war credits are roughly half the 2.04 million war credits Britain has finally provided (with an increase to 3.5 million being sought by both sides). So again if Britain can deliver the 24 Spitfires on order and then promise additional ones in early 1940 the Greeks will go for it and likely not seek alternatives. With the War started the Greeks will take anything made available.

The Greeks would hardly mind that, they had also bought a license for Potez 63... but where are the engines coming from? The Greeks do have an aircraft factory it was delivering something like 7 aircraft a month in 1939 with preparations to start license producing HS.126 but Merlin engines are only built in Britain at the time. There were plans and an agreement for license production in France mind you...
They can have a licence for the Twin Battle in place of the Potez 63 too. Britain will be producing sufficient Merlins for its (expanded) needs ITTL. I think that either I or someone else said that the RR factories at Crewe & Glasgow would be opened sooner ITTL and that Ford would be starting Merlin production at Daggenham sooner too. The problem is getting them there. It's finding the shipping and after June 1940 they'll have to go around the Cape of Good Hope & through the Suez Canal instead of via Gibraltar & the Central Mediterranean.
The country fell before delivery when the aircraft had reached the Red Sea.
Ah. IIRC the FAA had a Martlet squadron in East Africa in the early part of 1942. That might be the squadron that got the aircraft destined for Greece.
That’s not a good TL for the Regia Aeronautica. The best plane they have over Albania is FIAT G50...
Indeed it won't. Plus the RAF fighter squadrons in Greece will be flying Spitfires instead of Gladiators & Hurricanes too. It won't be plain sailing for the Luftwaffe ITTL either.
 
The Spitfire in Belgian Service

From Post 133.
Belgium was awaiting permission for a licence to build by August 1938.
  • The text of the book didn't say when Belgium first expressed interest in buying Spitfires.
  • However, the table said they wanted 15-45 with 28.09.38 with the date of the quote.
In Our Timeline

The Aéronautique Militare didn't receive any Spitfires, but it did receive 22 Gladiators and 20 Hurricanes from the UK and Avions Fairey (with the assistance of SABCA) was in the process of building 80 Hurricanes.

According to the Belgian Wings website 22 Gladiators were ordered on 27.12.36 and were delivered between June 1937 and April 1938. The first 15 were built by Gloster and the last 7 were assembled by SABCA. The Air Ministry ordered a batch of 186 Gladiators in September 1935 as part of Scheme C. The last 22 were cancelled. I can't prove it but I think the 22 cancelled aircraft were the 22 aircraft sold to Belgium.

In the summer of 1938 Belgium started negotiations for the purchase of 40 Hurricanes which led to a contract being signed for 80 Hurricanes to be built under licence by Avions Fairey (with manufacture of the wings subcontracted to SABCA). Only 2 of the 80 had flown by early May 1940. The site says that another Hurricane was finished but didn't fly and a large number of otherwise completed aircraft without engines because they were waiting for Rolls Royce to deliver them. Belgium also received 20 Hawker built Hurricanes which were taken from the Firms first production contract (for 600 aircraft) that was let in June 1936.

Belgium also ordered 40 Fiat C.R.42 biplane fighters from Italy in December 1939 and 30 were delivered by May 1940. 40 Brewster Buffaloes were ordered on 11.12.39, but none were delivered. One was captured by the Germans at Bordeaux, 6 were on the aircraft carrier Béarn and the 33 remaining aircraft were delivered to the UK in July and August 1940.

The Belgian Wings website doesn't mention the F4Fs ordered by Belgium. Neither do Green & Fricker, but they do mention that Belgium was seeking to buy Fiat G.50 fighters and Caprioni Ca.314 fighters.

According to the Neihorster the AM had 18 squadrons organised into 3 regiments of 6 squadrons when Germany attacked. This included No. 2 Fighter Regiment with 6 squadrons of which 2 had CR.42s, one had Gladiators, one had Hurricanes and 2 had Fairey Foxes. Amogst the other 2 regiments were 7 squadrons of Fairey Foxes, 2 squadrons of Renard R.31s, one squadron of Fairey Battles and finally 2 squadrons that were equipped with handfuls of Battles, Fireflies, GR.8s, Moranes, SV-5s and 3-engined Savoias. The last pair of squadrons are not mentioned in Green & Fricker. According to the Belgian Wings website 16 Battles were ordered from Fairey in 1937 to replace its Fairey Fox biplanes and they were delivered 1937-38.

In Our Timeline

Belgium could have ordered 22 Spitfires on 27.12.36 ITTL but it will be hard to have them delivered between June 1937 and May 1938. Fortunately, the Belgian Government was prepared to wait an extra 6-12 months for the delivery of Spitfires instead of Gladiators. In common with the Gladiators IOTL the last 7 Spitfires were assembled in Belgium by SABCA. However, the Belgian Government wasn't as laissez faire with the second contract because the TTL contract for 100 Spitfires (including 80 built in Belgium was signed 6 months before the OTL contract for 100 Hurricanes (80 built in Belgium). As a result all 100 aircraft were delivered by May 1940 which together with the 22 built instead of the Gladiator made a total of 122 Spitfires which would have been enough to equip 8 squadrons, which would have been the 6 fighters squadrons in the 2nd Regiment and 2 of the Fox squadrons in the 1st and 3rd Regiments.

I also think that the UK could have supplied 90 Spitfires instead of the 40 Buffaloes, 40 Fiat C.R.42s & 10 Wildcats and delivered them by May 1940 so they could have re-equipped 6 squadrons in the 1st and 3rd Regiments. That would have given Belgium 212 Spitfires (less attrition) on 10th May 1940, which would have equipped 14 of the 18 squadrons in the Aéronautique Militare and one of the 4 other squadrons on 10.05.40 was equipped with Twin Battles (instead of Real-Battles).

Avions Fairey & SABCA would be working on a second batch of Spitfires on 10th May 1940 and the Belgian Government would have been negotiating with HMG for the purchase of more Spitfires & Twin Battles in place of the G.50s & Ca.314s it was in negotiations with Italy for IOTL.
 
The Spitfire in French Service

Part of Post 133.
France one aircraft delivered 18.07.39. This was production aircraft No. 251 and wasn't taken from a RAF contract.
  • However, in early 1938 the French Government was interested in the delivery of 100 Spitfires by September 1939 and in obtaining a manufacturing licence.
  • They also asked for 3 for evaluation purposes, but only one was delivered. This was the aircraft delivered on 18.07.39.
France turned to Curtiss-Wright of Buffalo, New York. An initial batch of 100 Hawk 75A-1 fighters (Mohawk Mk I in the RAF) were delivered from December 1938. It was followed by 100 Hawk 75A-2 (Mohawk Mk II) delivered from May 1939. Next were approximately 60 Hawk 75A-3s (of 135 ordered) delivered from February 1940 with the rest going to North Africa or taken over by Britain as Mohawks Mk III. Only 6 of 795 Hawk 75A-4s ordered reached France before the surrender and of the other 278 that were actually built 4 were lost in transit at sea, 23 were diverted to Martinique where they sat out the war and 251 were taken over by Britain as Mohawks Mk IV. Thus 1,130 Hawk 75s were ordered by France of which 619 were built and approximately 270 reached France before the surrender.

The above came from the Putnams book on Curtiss aircraft. It also says.
The exact total of Mohawk IVs cannot be determined from RAF serial numbers since some blocks applied to both Ills and IVs without distinction; the numbers appearing as lVs total 278, only six less than the total of H75-A4s built. However, some 75As other than A4s became Mohawk IVs, including the ten A9s for Persia and at least six of the former Chinese A5s assembled in India.
France also ordered 185 Hawk 81A-1 fighters that were taken over by Britain as Tomahawks Mk I and an unspecified number of Hawk H87A-1 aircraft (Kittyhawks).

ITTL Spitfires were built by Boulton-Paul, Gloster, Hawker & Westland instead of the Defiant, as many Gladiators as possible, the Henley, Hurricane, Lysander & Whirlwind and Walrus production was moved from Supermarine to Saunders Roe in 1936 instead of 1940.

In spite of that I'm sceptical that the British aircraft industry could deliver 270 Spitfires to France instead of the 270-odd Curtiss Hawks that France supplied, in addition to the extra aircraft that were exported ITTL to other nations and deliver fighters in the OTL quantities to the RAF, Dominion air forces and India. Furthermore, France would have ordered the Curtiss aircraft anyway because it needed all the fighters it could get.

However, that's with a POD of 1934 when the RAF specification that produced the Spitfire was issued. It would have been a completely different story in "The Mother of all Spitifire wanks" because the British aircraft industry was twice the size of OTL in 1934 and continued to produce at double the OTL rate until about 1940. It might have been able to deliver the thick end of the 1,315 Spitfires ordered by France (instead of 1,130 Mohawks & 185 Tomahawks) in that TL before France surrendered. Except in that TL France probably didn't surrender.
 
The Spitfire in Canadian Service
In Our Timeline

On paper the RCAF had 23 squadrons on 03.09.39 of which 11 were Regular and 12 were Auxiliary. This included 6 fighter and 3 army co-operation squadrons. 271 aircraft were on hand but the only modern aircraft were 10 Fairey Battles and 19 Hawker Hurricanes. The RCAF received 20 Hurricanes before World War II which were built by Hawker and taken from its first RAF production contract.

Another pair of Hurricanes had been delivered to Canada before the war. These were used as pattern aircraft by the Canadian Car & Foundry who had received an order for 40 Hurricanes in November 1938. These were the first of 1,451 Hurricanes built by the firm to British and Canadian account between 1940 and 1943. The Firm also built 835 Curtiss Helldivers 1943-45 out of 1,000 that were ordered in 1942.

Meanwhile, National Steel Car received a contract to build 21 Westland Lysanders in March 1938 and these were the first of 225 built 1939-42. The first 75 were for the RCAF and the last 150 were for the RAF. Except that the RAF cancelled its order and the aircraft were taken over by the RCAF who used them as target tugs. The firm delivered its first Lysander about 6 months before CCF delivered its first Hurricane, which is not surprising because the first batch of Lysanders was ordered 8 months before the first batch of Hurricanes. NSC sold its aircraft business to the Canadian Government in 1942 and the Firm was renamed Victory Aircraft. It built 430 Lancasters, one Lincoln and one York 1943-45. But there was a gap of about 6 months between the last Lysander and the first Lancaster.

The RCAF sent one fighter and 2 army co-operation squadrons to the UK in 1940. The fighter squadron was equipped with British built Hurricanes, joined Fighter Command and fought with distinction in the Battle of Britain. The army co-operation squadrons were equipped with British built Lysanders, joined No. 22 (Army Co-operation) Group and didn't do very much at all. One became a fighter squadron at the end of 1940 and the other re-equipped with Tomahawks in April 1941.

In This Timeline

The RCAF still had 23 squadrons on 03.09.39. However, because it had adopted the TTL version of the RAF's army co-operation doctrine so it had 9 fighter squadrons and a number of AOP & Light Liaison flights. It still had 271 aircraft on hand and the only modern aircraft were 10 Fairey Twin Battles and 19 Supermarine Spitfires. A total of 22 Spitfires had been sent to Canada of which 20 were for the RCAF and 2 were pattern aircraft for CCF.

In common with the Mother Country Canada built Spitfires instead of the 1,451 Hurricanes and 225 Lysanders built IOTL. Furthermore, all 1,676 of them were built by CCF. It and NSC also built Avro Ansons IOTL so ITTL CCF built fewer Ansons and NSC made more of them. CCF was given a pair of British built Spitfires as pattern aircraft and the first production contract was in March 1938 (when the first Lysanders were ordered IOTL) instead of November 1938 (when the first Hurricanes were ordered IOTL).

Deliveries were as follows:
1939 - 15 instead of 15 Lysanders​
1940 - 101 instead of 76 Hurricanes and 25 Lysanders​
1941 - 546 instead of 511 Hurricanes and 35 Lysanders​
1942 - 850 instead of 700 Hurricanes and 150 Lysanders​
1943 - 164 instead of 164 Hurricanes​

However, CCF might continue to build Spitfires instead of re-tooling to build Helldivers. Production of that type IOTL was 30 in 1943, 506 in 1944 and 299 in 1945. If 1,000 Spitfires had been ordered in 1942 instead of 1,000 Helldivers my guess is that CCF would have delivered the last one by the middle of 1944 because no production would have been lost through ending production of the Spitfire and re-tooling to build the Helldiver. IOTL average production in 1942 was 175 Hurricanes a quarter but Helldiver production didn't reach that level until the second half of 1944 when 150 were built in the third quarter and 190 in the fourth quarter. ITTL the average production of Spitfires at TTL in 1942 was 213 Spitfires a quarter.

The RCAF sent 3 day fighter/ground attack squadrons to the UK in 1940. The squadrons were equipped with British built Spitfires. The intention had been for them to proceed to France and reinforce the Air Component of the British Expeditionary Force (ACBEF). However, the plan was overtaken by events and all 3 squadrons joined Fighter Command instead and served with distinction in the Battle of Britain.
 
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