Your favorite kind of Brazil?

What is your favorite kind of Brazil?

  • Portuguese Colony

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • Dutch Colony

    Votes: 14 7.9%
  • In Union with Portugal

    Votes: 19 10.7%
  • Brazilian Empire

    Votes: 81 45.8%
  • Fascist/Integralist

    Votes: 2 1.1%
  • Communist

    Votes: 14 7.9%
  • Liberal Democracy

    Votes: 23 13.0%
  • Failing Banana Republic

    Votes: 3 1.7%
  • Balkanized

    Votes: 18 10.2%

  • Total voters
    177

Goldstein

Banned
I saw a map a while ago about a balkanized brazil that later developed a Baathist-like pan-movement. That is by far the coolest Brazil I've seen. From the options, I'd like one in union with Portugal, because somebody has to love LusoWanks, and that's me.
 

Tamandaré

Banned
I mean, OTL Brazil is pretty great. What do you guys have against it?

As a inhabitant of OTL Brazil, I have a entire list of issues that all trace back to that day in 1889 some positivist officers decided to depose the Rightful Emperor Dom Pedro II. If I could kill people with sheer hate, all the conspiracy would be dead and I would be living in the Brazilian Empire right now, wearing a monocle. Also there would be Airships.


Empire and Liberal Democracy are not mutually exclusive.

President of Venezuela at the time when he heard about the end of the Empire: "There goes the only true democracy in South America!"

It has remained true to this day, alas.

I saw a map a while ago about a balkanized brazil that later developed a Baathist-like pan-movement. That is by far the coolest Brazil I've seen. From the options, I'd like one in union with Portugal, because somebody has to love LusoWanks, and that's me.

I like Brazil united with Portugal, but I don't consider that Brazil, I consider it Brazil + Portugal, even if on the long-haul its gonna be pretty much Brazil with some land on Europe.
 
As a inhabitant of OTL Brazil, I have a entire list of issues that all trace back to that day in 1889 some positivist officers decided to depose the Rightful Emperor Dom Pedro II. If I could kill people with sheer hate, all the conspiracy would be dead and I would be living in the Brazilian Empire right now, wearing a monocle. Also there would be Airships.

Well, the coup against Dom Pedro II was certainly backstabbing, but frankly, the monarchy was long dead before that. The Braganzas simply had no political support, and even the Imperial Family believed that Isabel's reign would be a short one, and even her didn't consider herself prepared for the throne. Recently I've read a good book about this subject - Castelo de Papel, by Mary del Priore - that focus on the lives of Gaston de Orleans and Isabel. But I agree that an Empire that could reach political stability until the 20th Century would be interesting.

Personally, I think that there is a Brazilian subject that is often discussed, but never really explored in depth: a Brazil that is balkanized right during the process of independency.
 
I like the idea of an imperial Brazil. The right POD might be in having Isabella mary Prince Pierre instead of Prince Gaston. There's something impressive about there being an enduring Catholic empire in the world, and unlike plenty of states that have had emperoris, the title actually fit the Brazilian monarch given the sheer size of his realm.
 
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I like the idea of an imperial Brazil. The right POD might be in having Isabella mary Prince Pierre instead of Prince Gaston. There's something impressive about there being an enduring Catholic empire in the world, and unlike plenty of states that have had emperoris, the title actually fit the Brazilian monarch given the sheer size of his realm.

Changing her husband wouldn't work. You need to avoid Isabel as heir completely. Give Pedro II a surviving son, or make his grandson Pedro of Saxe-Coburg and Braganza be the heir. But even that wouldn't be sufficient. Republicanism wasn't linked to the dislike of a person, but was a political belief that was strong among the educated middle classes.
 
I have to say I'm a little troubled by the perception that Brazil's 'potential' and capacity to have influence on the continent is somehow dependent on a king ruling it.

It's not so much that its because of the king as it is because the empire was the most stable period in Brazilian history and in people's view continuing stability would be most easily caused by keeping the empire.
 
Changing her husband wouldn't work. You need to avoid Isabel as heir completely. Give Pedro II a surviving son, or make his grandson Pedro of Saxe-Coburg and Braganza be the heir. But even that wouldn't be sufficient. Republicanism wasn't linked to the dislike of a person, but was a political belief that was strong among the educated middle classes.

How would changing his heir fix that?
 
How would changing his heir fix that?

Because Isabel wasn't raised to be a monarch, but rather to be a good housewife, and she was exactly that. She hated everything related to government, and the political elite believed that her foreign husband would be the true ruler. A male heir would be treated differently. But it would only diminish the Republican support, not extinguish it.
 
Because Isabel wasn't raised to be a monarch, but rather to be a good housewife, and she was exactly that. She hated everything related to government, and the political elite believed that her foreign husband would be the true ruler. A male heir would be treated differently. But it would only diminish the Republican support, not extinguish it.

So, at what point would it be right for Pedro II to start grooming Pedro III?
 
How would changing his heir fix that?

Independent of her husband, he would still be seen as a foreigner enchroching in National affairs, as in OTL. Maybe if you make Isabel marry with a Brazilian you can decrease the attacks against her, but not diminishes them. She was the perfect scapegoat as her father was too much popular to be attacked by the Republicans.
 
So, at what point would it be right for Pedro II to start grooming Pedro III?

Just makes his heir survives. :)

But I don't know if this would work. The Empire felt mainly by political reasons (lack of reforms, lack of Provincial representation and autonomy,ostracization of the Army, lack of support of Conservative landowners after the Abollition, etc), not dynastic ones,
 
Just makes his heir survives. :)

But I don't know if this would work. The Empire felt mainly by political reasons (lack of reforms, lack of Provincial representation and autonomy,ostracization of the Army, lack of support of Conservative landowners after the Abollition, etc), not dynastic ones,

I was thinking of Pedro of Saxe-Coburg and Braganza though.
 
President of Venezuela at the time when he heard about the end of the Empire: "There goes the only true democracy in South America!"

Do you recall the name of that president? All I can find is Juan Pablo Rojas Paúl and I cant find a quote of him saying that (however true it may be).
 
Do you recall the name of that president? All I can find is Juan Pablo Rojas Paúl and I cant find a quote of him saying that (however true it may be).

It was him. Although he used the term "republic" instead of "democracy". José Murilo de Carvalho, history teacher at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, presents the current quote and disserts about the Republican values of Pedro II in the following article...

In Portuguese: http://www.revistadehistoria.com.br/secao/capa/imperador-republicano
In English:
http://www.brasil.gov.br/sobre/history/republic/d.-pedro-ii-and-republican-values/print
 
It was him. Although he used the term "republic" instead of "democracy". José Murilo de Carvalho, history teacher at the Federal University of Rio de Janeiro, presents the current quote and disserts about the Republican values of Pedro II in the following article...

In Portuguese: http://www.revistadehistoria.com.br/secao/capa/imperador-republicano
In English:
http://www.brasil.gov.br/sobre/history/republic/d.-pedro-ii-and-republican-values/print

Ahh thank you for that, it's always nice to see where these quotes originally come from for reference :D
 
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