So, I'm working on a Cold War time line, part of which is an excuse to play with some of the various weapon systems that were proposed or even tested but never put into development. So, I'd love to hear what your favorite scrapped weapons were. Two I already know about, and do not plan on using, are the Orion program and the Pluto atomic-powered cruise missile. Two I do plan on using are the AGM-48 Skybolt and a fictional successor, the AGM-101 Thunderbolt, and the B-71 (not the Valkyrie, but the bomber version of the SR-71). I'm particularly interested in anything from the Soviet side, since most of the ones I've found out about have been American.
Your Favorite Abandoned Cold War Projects
- Thread starter asnys
- Start date
Thande
Donor
Well, there's the Soviet ekranoplan, the Almaz satellite programme, as well as (of course) the Soviet lunar programme...
X-20 Dyna Soar http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/X-20_Dyna-Soar ,Blue Gemini and MODS (Manned Orbital Development Station) http://www.thespacereview.com/article/582/1 , MOL (Manned Orbital Laboratory) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manned_Orbiting_Laboratory
Dear Asnys, thank you very much for not using the Orion and the Pluto.
Of course it all depends on the timeframe of your timeline and the type of Cold War that develops there.
If you want to give Britain an early nuclear capability, perhaps this is the bomber for you:http://www.xplanes3d.com/Projects%20Pages/Vickers_C/Vickers_C_Thumbs.html
For an alternate American attack helicopter, perhaps the AH-56 Cheyenne should be tried: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-56_Cheyenne
For low intensity warfare, the Convair Charger could be used instead of the North American OV-10 Bronco: http://www.aerofiles.com/conv-charger.jpg
Now, these and the following weapons are just suggestions, I am not an absolute fan of them, and perhaps other posters can point out good reasons not to build them.
I think there are some good reasons to leave the Gyrojet rocket pistol and carbine to the film industry: as the Wikipedia article states, it is impossible to load quickly, has much too slow velocity at short range, (usually) lacks accuracy at long range and has severe reliability problems.
And then there is my favourite plane that should have been cancelled, but wasn't:
The Lockheed F-104 Starfighter. Perhaps many of us already know it, but I'll write it anyway. The F-104 was originally conceived as a fairweather interceptor and found only limited favour with the USAF. It was later converted into an allweather, multi-role combat aircraft that saw service with the Belgian, Canadian, Danish, Dutch, German, Italian, Japanese, Jordanian, Norwegian, Pakistani, Spanish, Taiwanese and Turkish airforces (possibly still others). It had limited range, payload and maneuverability and a very high accident rate. In several countries corruption scandals broke out when it was discovered that Lockheed had given massive bribes to politicians to further the sale of this plane.
So this plane was at one time both extremely widely used in the West and extremely problematic. If these countries have something better than the F-104, I think the position of the West in the Cold War would be substantially strengthened. If you are looking for a replacement, candidates from our timeline should be considered just as much as those that were not mass-produced in OTL. Perhaps almost anything is better than what was used in OTL. Possible suggestions from OTL: Dassault Mirage III (perhaps with a more powerful engine, not neccessarily a French one, perhaps also with canards like the Israeli Kfir), English Electric Lightning, earlier use of the F-4 Phantom outside the US, Vought Crusader. For the strike role Blackburn Buccaneer or TSR.2. "Alternate" candidates: Hawker P.1211 or P.1221 (I am not even sure about the exact designation) or a multi-role version of the Convair F-106 with canards.
If you want more ultra-high speed planes like the SR-71, perhaps the North American F-108 Rapier can be considered, but it is probably uneconomical to have both.
Perhaps it is best to have fewer, rather than more types of weapons mass-produced, especially as fighter planes in the Fifties are concerned. Large production runs are more economical than small ones, and it is easyer to maintain an inventory of spare parts for a few types of machines than for many, though apart from the F-104 mentioned above, I do not know where the axe should be used.
I am looking forward very much to your timeline.
Just one more small thing: If at all possible, try to keep the Earth in one piece.
Thank you very much in advance.
Of course it all depends on the timeframe of your timeline and the type of Cold War that develops there.
If you want to give Britain an early nuclear capability, perhaps this is the bomber for you:http://www.xplanes3d.com/Projects%20Pages/Vickers_C/Vickers_C_Thumbs.html
For an alternate American attack helicopter, perhaps the AH-56 Cheyenne should be tried: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AH-56_Cheyenne
For low intensity warfare, the Convair Charger could be used instead of the North American OV-10 Bronco: http://www.aerofiles.com/conv-charger.jpg
Now, these and the following weapons are just suggestions, I am not an absolute fan of them, and perhaps other posters can point out good reasons not to build them.
I think there are some good reasons to leave the Gyrojet rocket pistol and carbine to the film industry: as the Wikipedia article states, it is impossible to load quickly, has much too slow velocity at short range, (usually) lacks accuracy at long range and has severe reliability problems.
And then there is my favourite plane that should have been cancelled, but wasn't:
The Lockheed F-104 Starfighter. Perhaps many of us already know it, but I'll write it anyway. The F-104 was originally conceived as a fairweather interceptor and found only limited favour with the USAF. It was later converted into an allweather, multi-role combat aircraft that saw service with the Belgian, Canadian, Danish, Dutch, German, Italian, Japanese, Jordanian, Norwegian, Pakistani, Spanish, Taiwanese and Turkish airforces (possibly still others). It had limited range, payload and maneuverability and a very high accident rate. In several countries corruption scandals broke out when it was discovered that Lockheed had given massive bribes to politicians to further the sale of this plane.
So this plane was at one time both extremely widely used in the West and extremely problematic. If these countries have something better than the F-104, I think the position of the West in the Cold War would be substantially strengthened. If you are looking for a replacement, candidates from our timeline should be considered just as much as those that were not mass-produced in OTL. Perhaps almost anything is better than what was used in OTL. Possible suggestions from OTL: Dassault Mirage III (perhaps with a more powerful engine, not neccessarily a French one, perhaps also with canards like the Israeli Kfir), English Electric Lightning, earlier use of the F-4 Phantom outside the US, Vought Crusader. For the strike role Blackburn Buccaneer or TSR.2. "Alternate" candidates: Hawker P.1211 or P.1221 (I am not even sure about the exact designation) or a multi-role version of the Convair F-106 with canards.
If you want more ultra-high speed planes like the SR-71, perhaps the North American F-108 Rapier can be considered, but it is probably uneconomical to have both.
Perhaps it is best to have fewer, rather than more types of weapons mass-produced, especially as fighter planes in the Fifties are concerned. Large production runs are more economical than small ones, and it is easyer to maintain an inventory of spare parts for a few types of machines than for many, though apart from the F-104 mentioned above, I do not know where the axe should be used.
I am looking forward very much to your timeline.
Just one more small thing: If at all possible, try to keep the Earth in one piece.
Thank you very much in advance.
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In spite of what I wrote in my last post about not increasing the number of types of weapons too much: Pershing II or a comparable ballistic missile with an intelligent submunitions dispenser system. Bomber Defence Missile. B-52 with four modern turbofans instead of the old eight turbojets. Seekbat missile. Spartan and Sprint Anti-Ballistic-Missiles. (Well, as I said before, in all cases there may have been good reasons not to build them, but their descriptions sound interesting enough.)
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sumwhereinCA
Banned
i thought the Neutron Bomb was interesting. even though they were developed by both USA and USSR they were later scrapped
Good suggestion sir. The ultimate cold war project.
I also like the wierder CIA projects with drugs and mind control. And a Swedish nuclear program including jet bombers.
As a proud Canadian, I'm voting for the full-on Avro Arrow project. Not just the fighter project, but the whole space-fighter shebang. Think about it; Canada leading the world in space projects. Hell, we just might take up the offer of annexing those piddly Caribbean islands for a launch site.
As a realist, though, I would've liked to see the F-14D, and any descendant of the A-10 (hell yeah!!).
As a realist, though, I would've liked to see the F-14D, and any descendant of the A-10 (hell yeah!!).
Project Orion.
Saturn and back in four years, powered by tossing nuclear bombs out the back.
Saturn and back in four years, powered by tossing nuclear bombs out the back.
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Hell yes! But don't stop there. I want a fully funtional Avro Car, and Canadian moon missions.
Heh-I thought that would get a fair number of replies.
Sadly, Star Wars wasn't scheduled for deployment until after the bombs fall, even in the most wildly optimistic versions, so I can't fit it in. I'm definitely going to have some version of Safeguard/Sentinel, though, and an expanded space program. Right now I'm leaning in the direction of a Soviet moon landing, a second series of Saturn-Vs, and maybe Blue Gemini, MOL/MODS, and a manned Venus flyby. Also, expanded anti-satellite programs by both sides, including Almaz and maybe the Uraga (sp?). TSR-2 and Hawker P.1154 look kind of fun. F-14D is about a decade too late-sorry. The AH-56 looks interesting, but I don't know enough about helicopters to know the difference between it and the Apache. Avro Arrow is cool, but I think it might have been replaced by the time the war starts.
CVA-01 would give the West a bit more naval capacity than I want them to have. To be honest, part of why I'm asking this is so that I can have the West spend money on really cool wonder-weapons that would otherwise have gone into things like logistical improvements and guarding the GIUK gap.
No problem.
Don't hold your breath-I've been working on it since before this. And I live in Uganda and get to a computer at an internet cafe about twice a week. It's gonna be a while.
Sorry, but World War III's scheduled for 1983, during the Able Archer exercise.
No. If you want to know why, message me and I'll explain, but if I do here I'll end up hijacking my own thread.
Thanks, everyone. Keep 'em coming!
Sadly, Star Wars wasn't scheduled for deployment until after the bombs fall, even in the most wildly optimistic versions, so I can't fit it in. I'm definitely going to have some version of Safeguard/Sentinel, though, and an expanded space program. Right now I'm leaning in the direction of a Soviet moon landing, a second series of Saturn-Vs, and maybe Blue Gemini, MOL/MODS, and a manned Venus flyby. Also, expanded anti-satellite programs by both sides, including Almaz and maybe the Uraga (sp?). TSR-2 and Hawker P.1154 look kind of fun. F-14D is about a decade too late-sorry. The AH-56 looks interesting, but I don't know enough about helicopters to know the difference between it and the Apache. Avro Arrow is cool, but I think it might have been replaced by the time the war starts.
CVA-01 would give the West a bit more naval capacity than I want them to have. To be honest, part of why I'm asking this is so that I can have the West spend money on really cool wonder-weapons that would otherwise have gone into things like logistical improvements and guarding the GIUK gap.
No problem.
Don't hold your breath-I've been working on it since before this. And I live in Uganda and get to a computer at an internet cafe about twice a week. It's gonna be a while.
Just one more small thing: If at all possible, try to keep the Earth in one piece.
Thank you very much in advance.
Sorry, but World War III's scheduled for 1983, during the Able Archer exercise.
No. If you want to know why, message me and I'll explain, but if I do here I'll end up hijacking my own thread.
Thanks, everyone. Keep 'em coming!
Dr Pervez Hoodbhoy
Banned
The Bristol class destroyer, the F-17 Cobra fighter (I presume the "Y" is only used in the development phase), the caterpillar drive, the Avro 730 bomber/recon aircraft, the Blue Streak ballistic missile, the Red Dean air-to-air missile, the Green Cheese (brilliant name) nuclear air-to-ship missile, the Blue Water nuclear artillery, the Blue Peacock nuclear mining project, the Blue Rapier and Red Rapier cruise missiles.
That pumpjet technology was developed and in service by the 1980s; it's employed aboard certain classes of submarine and torpedoes.
And that became a testbed for Sea Dart and (in the RN) Ikara because, with the cancellation of the big carrier(s), it was somewhat underarmed for its size and something of a white elephant because it was built as a dedicated escort vessel. Even though it fought in the Falklands - because it had Sea Dart aboard - it was never really a proper frontline warship.
I'd like to have seen some of those alternative Type 42 destroyers in service. And that massive USN surface effect ship they were going to make.