Your defence of Norway 1940, April 10th

[LightInfa]

perfectgeneral

I think you will find that the Iron Duke's and Tiger were the last British capital ships to be coal fueled. The R's like the proceeding Queen's were oil fueled.

I would also be less worried about the defending batteries and more about U boats and a/c, especially since subs had already given the RN some nasty shocks and I think the Germans committed quite a number to the campaign. Putting Warsprite into Narvik was a hell of a risk that paid off handsomely but that was a good bit further north and away from the main German effort.

Steve

Well they could be coal-fueled as well as they were partly designed with the possibility of the disruption of oil supplies in line.

 

[perfectgeneral]

I would go all or nothing. Commit the Naval Forces, that's my main advantage. Use the carriers to scout and provide all important air cover, protected by my heavy cruisers and AA cruisers. Form Battle Groups out of my 6 Capital Ships (4 Battleships, 2 Battlecruisers) protected by my Destroyers and modern Light Cruisers. I think a fast squadron with the battlecrusiers would be assigned to try and find and kill Scharnhorst and Gneisenau (Renown fought of both together, so i think both Renown's stand a good chance against them). The Battleships will be used in groups of two with escort, one will force Trondheim with most of my available forces, French Alpine troops and the Polish Mountain Brigade, land in the city after the fjord is safe, and then secure the town and airfield to allow hurricanes to fly in, and bombers to try runs at Danish airfield. The other Battlegroup will land British troops in the North around Narvik to support the Norwegian forces and take Narvik and its port. The Battle group will then rush south to meet with the second and help with bombardment and ship hunting. The plan seems it will either succeed beyond all doubts, or be a dismal failure. Then again, one must take risks. It relies on quick, decisive action.

In sharp contrast to the hesitant half measures that fell 'between two stools' in OTL. As SteveP points out there are a lot of U-boats in the water. There will be casualties, ships lost and a huge demand for supplies. Can it be argued that taking Norway will shorten the war? Is this gamble worth it?

The Russian convoy route will be easier (both in lives and distance). German iron ore supplies from Sweden will be limited. British iron ore supplies from Sweden will be possible (a big impact on the steel industry both sides of the Atlantic).

Admiral Raeder had pointed out several times in 1939 the potential danger to Germany of Britain seizing the initiative and launching its own invasion in Scandinavia - if the powerful Royal Navy had bases at Bergen. Narvik and Trondheim, the North Sea would be virtually closed to Germany, and the Kriegsmarine would be at risk even in the Baltic.

What you have called the Polish Mountain Brigade was in fact the Polish Independent Highland Brigade

It had approximately 5,000 soldiers trained in mountain warfare and was commanded by General Zygmunt Szyszko-Bohusz.

 

[Grimm Reaper]

It's difficult to consider wiping out half Germany's destroyer fleet with minimal losses a poor decision at Narvik. I would suggest that the assault be on Narvik itself, not on either side of the port.

Better some losses now than a long campaign when Germany obviously feels it has divisions to spare for Norway.

Likewise the assault on Trondheim, whose fall would provide a fine port, air fields already constructed and a line of defense cutting Germany from much of Norway.

 

[Snowman23]

In sharp contrast to the hesitant half measures that fell 'between two stools' in OTL. As SteveP points out there are a lot of U-boats in the water. There will be casualties, ships lost and a huge demand for supplies. Can it be argued that taking Norway will shorten the war? Is this gamble worth it?

The Russian convoy route will be easier (both in lives and distance). German iron ore supplies from Sweden will be limited. British iron ore supplies from Sweden will be possible (a big impact on the steel industry both sides of the Atlantic).

What you have called the Polish Mountain Brigade was in fact the Polish Independent Highland Brigade

Yes, I hope the Poles get plenty of revenge for Warsaw against the vile Germans! Viva Polska! And indeed, Im willing to stomach loses. The U-boats I noticed, and took note of, so I'm hoping my destroyers and light cruisers will screen my capital ships well enough. My hope is if I can take back all of Norway, bases around Oslo will be perfect for bombing raids on Germany, and denying German Swedish Ore will weaken them, along with giving me a good jumping board for any other operations against Germany, and making them have to divert major forces to forestall any move by me.

It's difficult to consider wiping out half Germany's destroyer fleet with minimal losses a poor decision at Narvik. I would suggest that the assault be on Narvik itself, not on either side of the port.

Better some losses now than a long campaign when Germany obviously feels it has divisions to spare for Norway.

Likewise the assault on Trondheim, whose fall would provide a fine port, air fields already constructed and a line of defense cutting Germany from much of Norway.

Yes, I ment a straight in attack, my mistake, a few words could mean the difference between victory and defeat in my battle plan.

So I see it is agreed this will eithier get me a load of awards and promotions or get me arse tared and feathered by the politcians and people?

 

[Oddball]

The forts will be very poorly manned, given barely 2000 Germans for the entire city/port/forts/airfield/etc, ...

Wrong. The Germans did put a lot of resources into the captured forts at the entrance to the Trondheimsfjord.

So much that their recature was a part of the initial (and then abandoned) plan for the recapturing of Trondheim (Hammerforce, Sickelforce and Mauriceforce).

I would also be less worried about the defending batteries...
Steve

IIRC the admirality was very afraid of the German manned Norwegian Batteries.

Just look at the Blücher incident. Costal batteries with high readines in restricted waters does represent a valid danger...

 

[arctic warrior]

This may come in handy to players.

My attempt would be to focus on southern Norway and leave Dietl and his mountain regiment to wither in Narvik. Taking out the German destroyers would still be an option though - making Dietl aware that its only a matter of time!

But the forces used at Narvik should definately be routed south to retake Trondhjem and stop the Germans. The Guards may still go to Narvik to shore up the Norvegian Brigade and keep the Germans alert.
The Poles and French would come in handy in the south good troops with the right equipment and TANKS. That would be nasty to the Germans having only the Pz. battalion 40 used in Denmark moved across the water and consisting of Pz.s I and II.
Maurice force and Sickle force should both get a French demi-brigade and centre on Trondhjem while the Poles go south the set up communications with the Norwegians and add to the defences against the German advance. And I have to get the kit of Maurice and Sickle forces off the warships and into Norway.
The Germans had only 1.700 troops of 3. Mountain div/138. Regiment at Trondhjem.

Crucial to the effort would be the air-war.
The Germans according to this used I/ZG76 (Bf110) and ZG1 as well as II/JG76 (Bf109) in the operation. On April 15. II and III Gruppe/Wing ZG1 was deployed off the operation leaving I/ZG1 and I/ZG76 in Norway and II/JG76 in Denmark to provide fighter cover for the bombers and Stukas of KG26, KG4, KG100, KG30, St.G.1, KG40, recce sqd's, coastal air and Transports.

Aalborg was the main transport airfield in Jutland usually clogged by hundreds of Ju-52s. The fighters of JG76 would be on station at Esbjerg and Ry airfields and the those in Norway at Oslo/Forneby and Kjeller and Stavanger/Sola.
The flying air-defences was supported by three battalions of AAA.

Problem is of course that trying to defeat the German fighters in order to get to the KGs and transports is a tough job involving RAF fighter deployment as well as using greater Bomber Command resources in low level attacks in Denmark as well as Norway to achieve hits on the Luftwaffe bases not least knocking them out of operation at a time when the Danish bases were grass fields.
The German transports did lift quite an amount of ground troops (several battalions) and supplies into Norway.

The thing is take out an increasing number of Luftwaffe units and you begin altering Fall Gelb plans of Luftwaffe operations in France and the Low Countries. But without the hindsight establishing air superority in the theater of operations is a must (and apparently something not percieved at the time).

Getting the Luftwaffe out of the skies makes room for cutting the supply/reinforcement line from Denmark/Germany into Norway. But to do it!

 

[El Pip]

As SteveP points out there are a lot of U-boats in the water.http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polish_Independent_Highland_Brigade

Yes but they're also using magnetic detonators that don't work, if I remember correctly the u-boats didn't sink as single British warship OTL because their torpedoes just didn't explode.

Thus in practical terms you can ignore the U-boats as a threat.

 

[trekchu]

Yes but they're also using magnetic detonators that don't work, if I remember correctly the u-boats didn't sink as single British warship OTL because their torpedoes just didn't explode.

Thus in practical terms you can ignore the U-boats as a threat.

Glad to see you over here too, good Sir.

 

[Paulo the Limey]

Sabotage the British effort.

I've been trying to determine whether your comments on this thread are in keeping with your professed political choices, or just plain trolling. Judging by some of the other stuff you have posted, I'm going with the latter.

 

[El Pip]

Ahh! Rumbled already. Impressive stalking. *looks around shiftily for spies*

 

[Oddball]

This may come in handy to players.

My attempt would be to focus on southern Norway and leave Dietl and his mountain regiment to wither in Narvik. Taking out the German destroyers would still be an option though - making Dietl aware that its only a matter of time!

I totaly agree with you. Trondheim should be a focus. But also Bergen with two complete Norwegian regiments (4.Div) inland should be relieved.

As you also have touched into is the problem of air cover. IMO the norwegisn campaign was won by the Germans due to their air superiority. When operating without aircover, the Germans often had severe problems dislogging the regular Norwegian forces.

Equaling the German air superiority might be difficult if you do not change something on the 9th of april tough...

Im in Denmark on holiday ATM, so I do not have access to my reference material. I might cook uo a scenario about Bergen when I come home.

 

[PMN1]

What would be the Soviet Union's reaction to Britain/France successfully holding onto part of Norway?

 

[Markus]

He, he, he! Who needs the Brits and French to defeat the Germans?

You did not say anything about timing, so in the Sept 3rd 1939 cabinet meeting the Norwegian SecDef Marcus Martinson proposes to put the Navy and shore batteries on a heightened state of alert; the fort´s garrisons are to be increased to wartime strength of example. After the Altmark and Mechelen incidents he urges a partial mobilisation of the Army and his demands are partially met. Instead of the typical winter peacetime strength of 18,000 men the size of the Army is kept at summer strength of 30,000 men. The Army concentrates its forces in the major towns that are also mobilisation centres. On the evening of April, 8th 1940 the cabinet decides on a full mobilisation that is announced over the radio right away.


The first obstacle Germany has to overcome are the shore batteries:

Trondheim:
4*21cm, 7*15cm, 6*6,5cm
Bergen:
6*21cm, 6*24cm howitzer, one torpedo battery
Kristiansand:
4*24cm(H), 2*21cm, 9*15cm, 4*6,5cm
Oslo:
1*30,5cm, 3*28cm, 3*28cm(H), 3*15cm, 10*12cm, 11*5,7cm, one torpedo battery

All batteries are fully named, have infantry to protect them from landside attacks and “shoot first, ask later” orders. They would be quite a challange to the invaders.


That gives Norway time to mobilize 100,000+ men, 18,000 at Oslo, 5,000 at Kristiansand and Stavanger, 4,500 at Bergen, 10,000 at Trondheim and another 10,000 at Tromsö and Narvik. It´s save to assume German progress will not nearly as fast as in OTL unless they reinforce their assualt forces, which might be difficult due to the available shipping. Add allied reinforcements and Germayn is in for a crushing defeat.

 

[stevep]

Yes but they're also using magnetic detonators that don't work, if I remember correctly the u-boats didn't sink as single British warship OTL because their torpedoes just didn't explode.

Thus in practical terms you can ignore the U-boats as a threat.

El Pip

What about Royal Oak? Or Courageous? The latter especially was a blow, both in the force capacity lost and the fact that an escorted CV was torpedoed by a U boat.

I'm not saying that throwing the RN into the coastal battle won't work, as 2nd Narvik showed. However without gaining air superiority I don't think the allies can dislodge the Germans from south and central Norway. Its just too easy for the Germans to reinforce compared to what the allies can throw into the fray. However you could get some nasty losses unless the Germans get very unlucky. [You might get Scharnhorst and save Glorious if there are more big ships in the region but doubt you can do more than delay the fall of Norway at this point].

Steve

 

[Oddball]

He, he, he! Who needs the Brits and French to defeat the Germans?

Completely true, but:

1: The OP said April 9th has happened as OTL

2: To have the Norwegian government make a decission like that is so ASB that even I would call it ASB...

 

[Markus]

Completely true, but:

1: The OP said April 9th has happened as OTL

Where? He said:

Given the forces provided historically and any squadrons that you can find airfields and logistic support, what would you do? Assume that you can make the armed forces communicate and co-operate (a bit ASB so don't over use this).

Ok, there is the map of British and German naval movement from the 7th to the 9th, but it does not say anything about Norwegian forces.

 

[Oddball]

Where?

You are the French and British (CW) forces. You have limited lines of communication with Norway's defending forces. April 9th has happened as OTL. Lucky for the allies that things are going to change from April 10th as they were really messed up OTL.

There you go

 

[Bill Cameron]

What about Royal Oak?

Steve,

What of it? The ship was at anchor in an allegedly protected harbor. The Brits were so oblivious that Prien had time to fire his bow tubes, turn around and fire his stern tubes. Hell, the ship's captain was on deck looking over the side after the first hit because he thought a paint locker had exploded.

Or Courageous?

Again, what of it? Two weeks into the war, escorts still learning their job, and U-29 only able to fire because the carrier turned into the wind to launch aircraft at the last moment.

U-boats did very little during the Norway Campaign. There was even a u-boat in the fjord when Warspite steamed into Narvik to administer her ass kicking of the destroyers and transports there, but nothing happened.

However without gaining air superiority...

That's the key IMHO. If you can keep the airfields out of German hands, the Allies have a chance. Otherwise it's over. HMS Glorious and that moron D'Oyly-Hughes aside, it was Luftwaffe that truly hurt the RN. Even ships specifically designed to work in an AA role were put under by the Luftwaffe.


Bill

 

[Oddball]

That's the key IMHO. If you can keep the airfields out of German hands, the Allies have a chance. Otherwise it's over. HMS Glorious and that moron D'Oyly-Hughes aside, it was Luftwaffe that truly hurt the RN. Even ships specifically designed to work in an AA role were put under by the Luftwaffe.

Bill

Its even better.

If you keep the Norwegian airfields out of German hands, the Germans does not stand a chance.

Period

 

[Markus]

There you go

Ahh, there it is. I assumed all the relevant rules would be in the first WI-posting. Since the POD is the 10th, the Norwegians have already screwed up the situation BIG TIME.

Frankly I got no idea how to fix this mess in time. Retaking Narvik before Fall Gelb is possible but the Germans are already in control of southern Norway and all of Denmark. All they need to do is hold their position until May 10th and than they won. Since they have air superiority they got a good chance to do that to put it mildly. Furthermore allied ground troops did not arrive until the 17th. That´s seven days during which the Germans can reinforce and expand their position in the south.

Conclusion: All is FUBAR(=fucked up beyond repair/rescue)