You Get What You Give- An End of History Timeline
- Thread starter vultan
- Start date
But seriously, how do you like the TL so far? This is my first one, so, is it plausible enough? Engaging? Interesting?
It's pretty good so far. Engaging? Yes. Interesting? Yes. Plausible? ... Somewhat. My main issue is this. How could the riots have spread so quickly to other cities and lasted so long without intervention from leading members of the black community (not to mention the riot police) to restore order? And why did the blacks from other cities join in the massive riots with their only encouragement coming from the media? Why would they destroy their own communites for something that happened in another city? I could see such a reaction if this were back in the 50's, 60's, or maybe even the early 70's, but in the 90's, civil rights legislation had been around for quite a while, making riots on that kind of scale and magnitude much less likely. In such a scenario, I'd think that the only riots to be had would be small lynch mobs formed outside the jail holding the three white supremacists demanding that they be turned over to the crowd (and even those would fade after a while). Plus, I would think that the media of the 90's (especially the state media, where Duke isn't all that popular and only won because of a rather stupid campaign gaffe from his opponent (and even then the election was close)) would use the incident to point the finger at Duke as the main cause of this (the supremacists were openly pro-Duke after all), making the case for healing racial tensions stronger in the nation instead of damaging them beyond repair, as well as serving as a hard blow to any racist legislation the Governor would try to pass. Also, $10 billion in damage? A little much in my opinion.
The two cities where I actually got the riots in earnest, NYC and Los Angeles, were already experiencing a time of great racial tension. In LA's case, it there was the ongoing trial of the police who beat Rodney King, so essentially it's the '92 riots a year earlier, while in New York City, I merely blew back fire into the embers of the Crown Heights riots that had happened just a couple months before and expanded them. A small stretch, I will concede, but by no means an impossible one.
Good points, but good civil rights legislation did not stop our OTL riots from stopping. In both Crown Heights and South Central LA IOTL, the tensions were pretty bad; all you needed was a catalyst. In OTL, it was Rodney King's assailants getting off and a little black boy being hit by a rabbi's motorcade. Here, it's a Neo-Nazi getting elected to high office! That gets everyone good at mad in America of all races, but remember, we'd just gone through a decade where race relations had been completely ignored by America. Why do you think Spike Lee's Do the Right Thing, released in 1989, struck such a cord? So you get some footage on TV of some cops facing off with rioters in New Orleans, add that to the already bad tensions, mass protests start, someone does something stupid...
Yeah, well, the LA riots in OTL caused $1 billion dollars in damage...but I can see your point. I'll lower the damage estimates and death tolls.
Nazi Space Spy
Banned
Great timeline, but please, dont turn it into a rightwing wank (Buchanan and Keyes are great, but Duke scares even the most far right elements in the Conservative movement which I am part of). If we get a rise in the hard right, we would get a rise in the hard left as well I'd think.
I can't believe no is noticing that I made Bob Barr a Senator and GEORGE FREAKING WALLACE JUNIOR, son of that George Wallace, a Congressman (look up the man, he's pretty scary). Although in I will concede that both races were pretty close IOTL, and Keyes didn't even run for the House seat.
Anyway, no, this won't be a right-wing wank, it will reciprocate. I'm conservative, though a much more moderate one, maybe about as conservative as Romney or so. Won't bash my side of the spectrum TOO much, although I'll be the first to admit he have more than our fair share of crazies.
Nazi Space Spy
Banned
We have alot of crazies, like Duke, thats for sure.I can't believe no is noticing that I made Bob Barr a Senator and GEORGE FREAKING WALLACE JUNIOR, son of that George Wallace, a Congressman (look up the man, he's pretty scary). Although in I will concede that both races were pretty close IOTL, and Keyes didn't even run for the House seat.
Anyway, no, this won't be a right-wing wank, it will reciprocate. I'm conservative, though a much more moderate one, maybe about as conservative as Romney or so. Won't bash my side of the spectrum TOO much, although I'll be the first to admit he have more than our fair share of crazies.
MORE AFTERMATH: THE DOW JONES INDUSTRIAL AVERAGE
In late 1991, America was recovering from a recession that many believe had it's start in the Black Monday of October 1987, an economic collapse in which the Dow lost nearly a fourth of it's value. While the economy bounced back very quickly, it led to a huge downturn into the savings and loans industry, having effects well into 1991. This would be compounded by the 1990 spike in oil prices and the start of the Gulf War.
Between January 2 and April 17 1991, the Dow grew significantly, and the year was poised to end pretty well, which could have possibly signaled that an end to the recession was near. However, when trading opened the morning of November 17, the same morning that it was confirmed David Duke had been elected Governor in Louisiana, the Dow dropped nearly 200 points for the day-this can't be stressed enough, NO ONE wants to see the Grand Wizard of the KKK elected as anything, period.
The urban violence that exploded over the next week or so did not help. With massive civil disturbances not too far away from Wall Street, panic mode ensued. Though the stock market eventually made up for it's losses, the year only ended at 2844.09 as the Dow Jones Industrial Average, not a huge gain over the year considering it was at 2610.64 on January 2. This recession helped ensure the Democratic win the next year, albeit in a close race.
The economy will be significantly worse in the 90s than it was in OTL; not exactly a recession, but more of a malaise. The stock market will grow more slowly than in OTL, and unemployment, while not very high, will be somewhat of a chronic problem until the late 90s.
PS: got my sources for Dow numbers here: http://www.nyse.tv/dow-jones-industrial-average-history-djia.htm#recent-djia-close , used wiki for the details
In late 1991, America was recovering from a recession that many believe had it's start in the Black Monday of October 1987, an economic collapse in which the Dow lost nearly a fourth of it's value. While the economy bounced back very quickly, it led to a huge downturn into the savings and loans industry, having effects well into 1991. This would be compounded by the 1990 spike in oil prices and the start of the Gulf War.
Between January 2 and April 17 1991, the Dow grew significantly, and the year was poised to end pretty well, which could have possibly signaled that an end to the recession was near. However, when trading opened the morning of November 17, the same morning that it was confirmed David Duke had been elected Governor in Louisiana, the Dow dropped nearly 200 points for the day-this can't be stressed enough, NO ONE wants to see the Grand Wizard of the KKK elected as anything, period.
The urban violence that exploded over the next week or so did not help. With massive civil disturbances not too far away from Wall Street, panic mode ensued. Though the stock market eventually made up for it's losses, the year only ended at 2844.09 as the Dow Jones Industrial Average, not a huge gain over the year considering it was at 2610.64 on January 2. This recession helped ensure the Democratic win the next year, albeit in a close race.
The economy will be significantly worse in the 90s than it was in OTL; not exactly a recession, but more of a malaise. The stock market will grow more slowly than in OTL, and unemployment, while not very high, will be somewhat of a chronic problem until the late 90s.
PS: got my sources for Dow numbers here: http://www.nyse.tv/dow-jones-industrial-average-history-djia.htm#recent-djia-close , used wiki for the details
Don't give us TOO much info, or else well be able to figure out everything.
I doubt you guys will guess what's in store.
Well, I've always enjoyed dystopia's, as long as you manage to avoid simple repetition of massacres and disasters, with nothing in between. There's gotta be some light at the end of the tunnel to keep things interesting, even if it turns out to be an onrushing train
Anyway, looks quite good so far.
Anyway, looks quite good so far.
Well, I've always enjoyed dystopia's, as long as you manage to avoid simple repetition of massacres and disasters, with nothing in between. There's gotta be some light at the end of the tunnel to keep things interesting, even if it turns out to be an onrushing train
Anyway, looks quite good so far.
Thanks for the feedback!
The economy will be significantly worse in the 90s than it was in OTL; not exactly a recession, but more of a malaise. The stock market will grow more slowly than in OTL, and unemployment, while not very high, will be somewhat of a chronic problem until the late 90s.
PS: got my sources for Dow numbers here: http://www.nyse.tv/dow-jones-industrial-average-history-djia.htm#recent-djia-close , used wiki for the details
Interesting link. I remember a stock market peak of 2999.25 right before Iraq invaded Kuwait, driving the market downward. I don't remember it recovering that fast.
I still think that the stock market rise of the 1990s was largely because of Internet technologies making it easy to invest. These would still happen.
Oh, there will still be growth, it will just be slower than IOTL. It's not a depression, or even a recession.
"David Duke did more for the left than anyone I know. Oh, sure, there were problems along the way, we didn't get everyone we wanted ASAP... but when does that ever happen?"
-Former Secretary of Labor Bernie Sanders, 2009 Time Magazine Interview
1992 Democratic Primaries
The story of Mario Cuomo winning the Democratic primaries was both expected and surprising at the same time. Cuomo, then Governor of New York, was the darling of the left in America and a favorite to win the nomination. However, for most of 1991 Cuomo had no real interest in running for the Presidency; Bush had won the Gulf War and the economy seemed to be making it's way out of recession, so his approval ratings seemed unbeatable.
Then David Duke was elected Governor of Louisiana as a Republican, the rioting happened, and the minor stock market panic. Cuomo believed that by associating Bush with extreme elements in his party, such as Duke, it would be possible to win the election.
And his challengers? The four big ones, in his estimation, were former California Governor Jerry Brown, former Massachusetts Senator Paul Tsongas, Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, and West Virginia Senator Jay Rockefeller, all declared candidates, were all more moderate than he was, so Cuomo believed he would win by taking the liberal vote and letting them split up the rest.
The rioting in New York between August and November? It was terrible, yes, but he believed that city's mayor, David Dinkins, would get the brunt of the criticism.
So, on December 20, 1991, the last day to apply for the New Hampshire primary, Mario Cuomo announced he would be running for President (Tom Harkin had a lock on Iowa, so no one was really going to focus on that).
After the expected Harkin win in Iowa, Cuomo won the New Hampshire primary by a close margin, with Tsongas coming in second, Bob Kerrey in third, Rockefeller in third, Brown in fourth, and Clinton in fifth. The only victory Clinton could claim was that he managed to control the damage created by the revelation of his affair with a woman named Gennifer Flowers by an appearance on 60 Minutes with his wife. With 1996 and 2000 still in mind, Clinton backed out of the race.
The Super Tuesday primaries were fairly evenly divided between Cuomo and Rockefeller. Tsongas went on to win his native Massachussetts and Rockefeller several southern states, but the race essentially become one between Cuomo and Brown. A surprise win in Colorado and a close second in Connecticut revitalized the former Governor's chances. It was only when Cuomo narrowly defeated Brown in his home state of California that Cuomo forced him out of the race, and essentially won the nomination.
The Democratic National Convention
Cuomo had a majority of the delegates going into the convention in his own New York City, with only Tsongas, Brown, and Rockefeller with more than a hundred each. It was here, on July 13th, that Cuomo announced his running mate: Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton. Clinton walked onto the stage to embrace Cuomo and gave a very well-received speech to the convention. He was nominated by acclamation.
Cuomo figured that relying on the liberal vote wouldn't get him very far past the primaries, so he needed a Southern "New Democrat", as these crazy kids were calling them nowadays, to balance himself regionally and ideologically. Perhaps the smarter choice would have been either Rockefeller or Tennessee Senator Al Gore, but Rockefeller had made some nasty comments about Cuomo during the campaign, and Gore was good in theory, but he felt having another Governor on the ticket would help create an outsider image that would do better in the South.
-Former Secretary of Labor Bernie Sanders, 2009 Time Magazine Interview
1992 Democratic Primaries
The story of Mario Cuomo winning the Democratic primaries was both expected and surprising at the same time. Cuomo, then Governor of New York, was the darling of the left in America and a favorite to win the nomination. However, for most of 1991 Cuomo had no real interest in running for the Presidency; Bush had won the Gulf War and the economy seemed to be making it's way out of recession, so his approval ratings seemed unbeatable.
Then David Duke was elected Governor of Louisiana as a Republican, the rioting happened, and the minor stock market panic. Cuomo believed that by associating Bush with extreme elements in his party, such as Duke, it would be possible to win the election.
And his challengers? The four big ones, in his estimation, were former California Governor Jerry Brown, former Massachusetts Senator Paul Tsongas, Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton, and West Virginia Senator Jay Rockefeller, all declared candidates, were all more moderate than he was, so Cuomo believed he would win by taking the liberal vote and letting them split up the rest.
The rioting in New York between August and November? It was terrible, yes, but he believed that city's mayor, David Dinkins, would get the brunt of the criticism.
So, on December 20, 1991, the last day to apply for the New Hampshire primary, Mario Cuomo announced he would be running for President (Tom Harkin had a lock on Iowa, so no one was really going to focus on that).
After the expected Harkin win in Iowa, Cuomo won the New Hampshire primary by a close margin, with Tsongas coming in second, Bob Kerrey in third, Rockefeller in third, Brown in fourth, and Clinton in fifth. The only victory Clinton could claim was that he managed to control the damage created by the revelation of his affair with a woman named Gennifer Flowers by an appearance on 60 Minutes with his wife. With 1996 and 2000 still in mind, Clinton backed out of the race.
The Super Tuesday primaries were fairly evenly divided between Cuomo and Rockefeller. Tsongas went on to win his native Massachussetts and Rockefeller several southern states, but the race essentially become one between Cuomo and Brown. A surprise win in Colorado and a close second in Connecticut revitalized the former Governor's chances. It was only when Cuomo narrowly defeated Brown in his home state of California that Cuomo forced him out of the race, and essentially won the nomination.
The Democratic National Convention
Cuomo had a majority of the delegates going into the convention in his own New York City, with only Tsongas, Brown, and Rockefeller with more than a hundred each. It was here, on July 13th, that Cuomo announced his running mate: Arkansas Governor Bill Clinton. Clinton walked onto the stage to embrace Cuomo and gave a very well-received speech to the convention. He was nominated by acclamation.
Cuomo figured that relying on the liberal vote wouldn't get him very far past the primaries, so he needed a Southern "New Democrat", as these crazy kids were calling them nowadays, to balance himself regionally and ideologically. Perhaps the smarter choice would have been either Rockefeller or Tennessee Senator Al Gore, but Rockefeller had made some nasty comments about Cuomo during the campaign, and Gore was good in theory, but he felt having another Governor on the ticket would help create an outsider image that would do better in the South.
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"So the Republicans are trying their hardest not to let anyone think Duke represents them in any way. So they do that by getting a guy on stage who basically says 'Fuck everyone who ain't a straight, blonde-haired-blue-eyed Christian!' Nice job breaking it, fuckers! Bush and Dick '92, everybody!"
-Comedian George Carlin commenting on Pat Buchanan's (in)famous "Culture War" speech at the 1992 Republican National Convention
The Duke Question
In the late months of 1992, the GOP was trying it's very hardest to disassociate itself with Duke. There was much fear going on that Duke would run for the nomination. This turned out to be unfounded.
You see, Duke may be an evil, evil man, but he wasn't stupid. He could see that in his own state, he was already extremely unpopular due to the rioting and the revelation that the shooters who started it were his supporters. There were even already whispers in the legislature of organizing a recall vote. The governor-elect knew he would be a lame duck for the first year or two of his term, at least, but he could still use the office as a vehicle to get his racist message across. He couldn't do that if removed from office, and running would make him look like enough of a fool to possibly make that a reality.
Had he not won the race, Duke probably would have run in the Republican primaries, simply to get his message out there. He didn't need that now, so on December 19, David Duke announced he would not run for the Republican nomination for the Presidency. Everyone, perhaps no one more than the higher-ups of the GOP, breathed a sigh of relief
1992 Republican Primaries
With Duke out of the picture, George Bush now seemed invincible going into the primaries. However, cracks were present, ones that could be exploited. Bush going back on his promise: "Read my lips, no new taxes!" made many in a time a relative economic hardship angry. The current Vice President, Dan Quayle, was seen by many as a buffoonish and gaffe-prone detriment to Bush.
In came Pat Buchanan, a staunch conservative, political commentator, and former official in both the Nixon and Reagan administrations. While definitely right-wing, Buchanan perhaps benefited by looking fairly moderate compared to David Duke, now a national figure. After making an uninspiring show at the Iowa caucuses, Buchanan shocked the political world by winning in New Hampshire with 48% to Bush's 47%.
Off course this wouldn't have much of an effect on the race: Buchanan did not go on to win any more primaries, since the Bush reelection machine had been quite thoroughly knocked back out of it's complacency after the NH loss. However, this would prove quite the conundrum for Bush. He had originally wanted to back away from some of the more far-right elements in his party, but the surprising amount of support for Buchanan seemed to give the President two options: stay away from Buchanan, and alienate much of the right... or get close to Buchanan, and risk getting alienating everyone else.
It wasn't an academic question, either; while Bush personally believed Cuomo was too leftist too win in his own right, that fool Perot was running an independent campaign that threatened to pull the moderates away and act as a spoiler. In the end, Bush decided he needed that conservative vote to get anywhere in the contemporary GOP.
Buchanan, after dropping out, would redirect some of the resources and insight he gained running for President by helping out conservatives getting elected to national office that election cycle, most importantly getting Alan Keyes, one of Reagan's diplomats, elected to the House from Maryland.
The Republican National Convention
To get anywhere, Bush decided his most pressing issue was to drop Quayle. He liked the guy, sure, but with Perot still in the race, he felt he needed somebody who could spell "potato" correctly in order to have his ticket taken seriously. Quayle apparently took it well enough, given the circumstances, and would endorse and support the ticket his president decided on.
Bush would have loved to nominate Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and hero of the Gulf War, Colin Powell, as his next running mate, but Powell decided he didn't want to run. Many of his advisers touted Buchanan as a great pick, as it would shore up his social conservative credentials very nicely... but in the end, Bush didn't trust that man a heartbeat away from being the most powerful human being on the planet. [What do you think this is? For All Time?]
In the end, he decided on his Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney, a conservative to the conservatives, and moderate to the moderates, and another person who came out the Gulf War with his reputation tremendously boosted if nothing else. [1] Cheney would be nominated by voice vote on August 17, the first day of the convention in Houston, Texas.
Secondly, Bush needed to shore up the values voters. God was mentioned a lot, gays got bashed a lot, and Pat Buchanan gave the keynote address. Many found the speech to be offensive in almost every possible way, and it had the effect of turning off many moderates to the Republican ticket.
Still, the guy Perot had as his running mate was a Democrat who gave a fairly strong showing in the primaries that year. [2] It was entirely possible that Perot would pull away as many Democrats as Republicans, and that Bush would ride in and snatch up the election anyway. He would win this one easy.
"Right?", Bush hoped to himself.
----
[1] Yes, I bashed FaT, then almost immediately made a reference to it, at least some memorable wording in one part. Sue me.
[2] No, MaskedPickle, it's NOT Jerry Brown.
----
I think my Republican primary update was better than the Democrat one, what do you guys think?
-Comedian George Carlin commenting on Pat Buchanan's (in)famous "Culture War" speech at the 1992 Republican National Convention
The Duke Question
In the late months of 1992, the GOP was trying it's very hardest to disassociate itself with Duke. There was much fear going on that Duke would run for the nomination. This turned out to be unfounded.
You see, Duke may be an evil, evil man, but he wasn't stupid. He could see that in his own state, he was already extremely unpopular due to the rioting and the revelation that the shooters who started it were his supporters. There were even already whispers in the legislature of organizing a recall vote. The governor-elect knew he would be a lame duck for the first year or two of his term, at least, but he could still use the office as a vehicle to get his racist message across. He couldn't do that if removed from office, and running would make him look like enough of a fool to possibly make that a reality.
Had he not won the race, Duke probably would have run in the Republican primaries, simply to get his message out there. He didn't need that now, so on December 19, David Duke announced he would not run for the Republican nomination for the Presidency. Everyone, perhaps no one more than the higher-ups of the GOP, breathed a sigh of relief
1992 Republican Primaries
With Duke out of the picture, George Bush now seemed invincible going into the primaries. However, cracks were present, ones that could be exploited. Bush going back on his promise: "Read my lips, no new taxes!" made many in a time a relative economic hardship angry. The current Vice President, Dan Quayle, was seen by many as a buffoonish and gaffe-prone detriment to Bush.
In came Pat Buchanan, a staunch conservative, political commentator, and former official in both the Nixon and Reagan administrations. While definitely right-wing, Buchanan perhaps benefited by looking fairly moderate compared to David Duke, now a national figure. After making an uninspiring show at the Iowa caucuses, Buchanan shocked the political world by winning in New Hampshire with 48% to Bush's 47%.
Off course this wouldn't have much of an effect on the race: Buchanan did not go on to win any more primaries, since the Bush reelection machine had been quite thoroughly knocked back out of it's complacency after the NH loss. However, this would prove quite the conundrum for Bush. He had originally wanted to back away from some of the more far-right elements in his party, but the surprising amount of support for Buchanan seemed to give the President two options: stay away from Buchanan, and alienate much of the right... or get close to Buchanan, and risk getting alienating everyone else.
It wasn't an academic question, either; while Bush personally believed Cuomo was too leftist too win in his own right, that fool Perot was running an independent campaign that threatened to pull the moderates away and act as a spoiler. In the end, Bush decided he needed that conservative vote to get anywhere in the contemporary GOP.
Buchanan, after dropping out, would redirect some of the resources and insight he gained running for President by helping out conservatives getting elected to national office that election cycle, most importantly getting Alan Keyes, one of Reagan's diplomats, elected to the House from Maryland.
The Republican National Convention
To get anywhere, Bush decided his most pressing issue was to drop Quayle. He liked the guy, sure, but with Perot still in the race, he felt he needed somebody who could spell "potato" correctly in order to have his ticket taken seriously. Quayle apparently took it well enough, given the circumstances, and would endorse and support the ticket his president decided on.
Bush would have loved to nominate Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and hero of the Gulf War, Colin Powell, as his next running mate, but Powell decided he didn't want to run. Many of his advisers touted Buchanan as a great pick, as it would shore up his social conservative credentials very nicely... but in the end, Bush didn't trust that man a heartbeat away from being the most powerful human being on the planet. [What do you think this is? For All Time?]
In the end, he decided on his Secretary of Defense, Dick Cheney, a conservative to the conservatives, and moderate to the moderates, and another person who came out the Gulf War with his reputation tremendously boosted if nothing else. [1] Cheney would be nominated by voice vote on August 17, the first day of the convention in Houston, Texas.
Secondly, Bush needed to shore up the values voters. God was mentioned a lot, gays got bashed a lot, and Pat Buchanan gave the keynote address. Many found the speech to be offensive in almost every possible way, and it had the effect of turning off many moderates to the Republican ticket.
Still, the guy Perot had as his running mate was a Democrat who gave a fairly strong showing in the primaries that year. [2] It was entirely possible that Perot would pull away as many Democrats as Republicans, and that Bush would ride in and snatch up the election anyway. He would win this one easy.
"Right?", Bush hoped to himself.
----
[1] Yes, I bashed FaT, then almost immediately made a reference to it, at least some memorable wording in one part. Sue me.
[2] No, MaskedPickle, it's NOT Jerry Brown.
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I think my Republican primary update was better than the Democrat one, what do you guys think?
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