You Choose Augustus' Successor

You Choose Augustus' Successor

  • Tiberius Claudius Nero

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Nero Claudius Drusus

    Votes: 21 41.2%
  • Germanicus

    Votes: 12 23.5%
  • Marcus Claudius Marcellus

    Votes: 2 3.9%
  • Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa

    Votes: 7 13.7%
  • Gaius Caesar

    Votes: 6 11.8%
  • Lucius Caesar

    Votes: 1 2.0%
  • Agrippa Postumus

    Votes: 0 0.0%
  • Other

    Votes: 0 0.0%

  • Total voters
    51
You Choose Augustus' Successor

You get to choose Augustus' Successor. Who do you like and why? All of the men listed were more or less under consideration at one point or another. Tiberius is on the list as well in case you like him. If I'm missing anyone please add in comments.:)

Tiberius Claudius Nero
Nero Claudius Drusus
Germanicus
Marcus Claudius Marcellus
Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa
Gaius Caesar
Lucius Caesar
Agrippa Postumus
Other
 
Agrippa's as good as any, but it probably doesn't much matter. In a family like that it's only a matter of time before you get a baddie.
 

Skallagrim

Banned
Nero Claudius Drusus. It's not even a contest, since he was so damned capable, Augustus liked and trusted him so much, and his OTL death was just so very, very dumb. His survival as a POD also prevents OTL's too hasty abortion of the Germanic expedition he was leading, which would in all likelihood leave affairs on the northernmost border in better order. (None of that "and then he magically annexed lots of Germania" nonsense, but he'd secure a set of stable and far-more-loyal-than-in-OTL Germanic client states across the Rhine. That would make for a nice buffer, and potentially a future springboard for very gradual advances deeper into Germania.)

A key issue here is that Tiberius was the older brother, and also got along well with Augustus. When granting the two brothers honours, it is attested that augustus favoured Drusus. On the other hand, after Agrippa died in 12 BC in OTL, it was Tiberius who was ordered to divorce his wife (Vipsania Agrippina) and marry Agrippa's widow-- Augustus' daughter Julia. This rather indicates that Augustus was going to make Tiberius his heir even before Drusis died in 9 BC. Counter-argument: Drusus was married Antonia Minor, and that tie was considered an unbreakable one, whereas Vipsania was "merely" the daughter of the late Agrippa (from his first marriage). Can we say that if Drusus had lived on Augustus would have named him his heir, instead of Tiberius? Well, not would have, but certainly could have. That's good enough for this particular discussion thread. (Alternatively, we may switch the fates of the brothers, and imagine that tiberius falls off a horse in 9 BC, instead of Drusus. Problem solved.)

Having Nero Claudius Drusus as heir means having Germanicus as his heir (so this is a two-for-one, sice he's listed, too!), and we may assume that simple causality will prevent the circumstances of his OTL death in 19 AD. All of this keeps that bastard Sajanus nicely side-lined, which means the two elder sons of Germanicus (Nero Julius Caesar Germanicus and Drusus Julius Caesar Germanicus) don't die in 31 and 33 AD due to that one's perfidious influence. That should nicely keep Caligula out of the succession, at least.

---

Second best option: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa. Tiberius and Drusus were only considered because Agrippa kicked the bucket at age 51. To the best of our knowledge, due to natural causes. Let's assume those are preventable causes (like random disease) rather than something more inevitable (like a heart condition or something). Agrippa survives. We may assume he'd be quite capable, although I still think Drusus would be better (if slightly, and in part based on the positive side effects his survival would have regarding Germania). Agrippa's heir would be either Gaius Caesar or Lucius Caesar, assuming that their father's survival butterflies away their own early deaths. As far as we know, they both died of illness. Do note that both were not known to be stellar leaders. A bit mediocre, really. This might be their youth and inexperience, but when one compares either to Germanicus (who would be heir is drusus succeeds Augustus), they can't really hold a candle to him. So for multiple reasons, I consider Drusus a much better heir than Agrippa.

---

Third best option: Tiberius, as in OTL, except Sejanus gets trampled by runaway goats or something.

Failing that escape clause, third best would instead be Marcus Claudius Marcellus, the actual heir by blood, closest male relative in the line of succession. If he survives, one may suppose it's going to be him. Since he was also married to the daughter of Augustus, this would yield the advantage (at least, some call it that) of establishing firm dynastic inheritance, and avoiding the precedent of adoption. Presumably, this would cause the Roman Empire to be much more dynastic in its succession approach, which some have argued would lend itself to greater stability (since it's always clear what the exact line of succession is). That and side-lining Sejanus would be the only advantages, though. I don't get the impression that Marcellus was a particularly exceptional leader, unlike the aforementioned candidates.
 
Nero Claudius Drusus. It's not even a contest, since he was so damned capable, Augustus liked and trusted him so much, and his OTL death was just so very, very dumb. His survival as a POD also prevents OTL's too hasty abortion of the Germanic expedition he was leading, which would in all likelihood leave affairs on the northernmost border in better order. (None of that "and then he magically annexed lots of Germania" nonsense, but he'd secure a set of stable and far-more-loyal-than-in-OTL Germanic client states across the Rhine. That would make for a nice buffer, and potentially a future springboard for very gradual advances deeper into Germania.)

A key issue here is that Tiberius was the older brother, and also got along well with Augustus. When granting the two brothers honours, it is attested that augustus favoured Drusus. On the other hand, after Agrippa died in 12 BC in OTL, it was Tiberius who was ordered to divorce his wife (Vipsania Agrippina) and marry Agrippa's widow-- Augustus' daughter Julia. This rather indicates that Augustus was going to make Tiberius his heir even before Drusis died in 9 BC. Counter-argument: Drusus was married Antonia Minor, and that tie was considered an unbreakable one, whereas Vipsania was "merely" the daughter of the late Agrippa (from his first marriage). Can we say that if Drusus had lived on Augustus would have named him his heir, instead of Tiberius? Well, not would have, but certainly could have. That's good enough for this particular discussion thread. (Alternatively, we may switch the fates of the brothers, and imagine that tiberius falls off a horse in 9 BC, instead of Drusus. Problem solved.)

Having Nero Claudius Drusus as heir means having Germanicus as his heir (so this is a two-for-one, sice he's listed, too!), and we may assume that simple causality will prevent the circumstances of his OTL death in 19 AD. All of this keeps that bastard Sajanus nicely side-lined, which means the two elder sons of Germanicus (Nero Julius Caesar Germanicus and Drusus Julius Caesar Germanicus) don't die in 31 and 33 AD due to that one's perfidious influence. That should nicely keep Caligula out of the succession, at least.

---

Second best option: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa. Tiberius and Drusus were only considered because Agrippa kicked the bucket at age 51. To the best of our knowledge, due to natural causes. Let's assume those are preventable causes (like random disease) rather than something more inevitable (like a heart condition or something). Agrippa survives. We may assume he'd be quite capable, although I still think Drusus would be better (if slightly, and in part based on the positive side effects his survival would have regarding Germania). Agrippa's heir would be either Gaius Caesar or Lucius Caesar, assuming that their father's survival butterflies away their own early deaths. As far as we know, they both died of illness. Do note that both were not known to be stellar leaders. A bit mediocre, really. This might be their youth and inexperience, but when one compares either to Germanicus (who would be heir is drusus succeeds Augustus), they can't really hold a candle to him. So for multiple reasons, I consider Drusus a much better heir than Agrippa.

---

Third best option: Tiberius, as in OTL, except Sejanus gets trampled by runaway goats or something.

Failing that escape clause, third best would instead be Marcus Claudius Marcellus, the actual heir by blood, closest male relative in the line of succession. If he survives, one may suppose it's going to be him. Since he was also married to the daughter of Augustus, this would yield the advantage (at least, some call it that) of establishing firm dynastic inheritance, and avoiding the precedent of adoption. Presumably, this would cause the Roman Empire to be much more dynastic in its succession approach, which some have argued would lend itself to greater stability (since it's always clear what the exact line of succession is). That and side-lining Sejanus would be the only advantages, though. I don't get the impression that Marcellus was a particularly exceptional leader, unlike the aforementioned candidates.
About Tiberius and Julia likely Livia pushed for the match and Julia had already two sons who will stay as Augustus main heirs until their death...
Tiberius and Drusus at this point are not seriously taken in consideration as main heirs.
 
Nero Claudius Drusus. It's not even a contest, since he was so damned capable, Augustus liked and trusted him so much, and his OTL death was just so very, very dumb. His survival as a POD also prevents OTL's too hasty abortion of the Germanic expedition he was leading, which would in all likelihood leave affairs on the northernmost border in better order. (None of that "and then he magically annexed lots of Germania" nonsense, but he'd secure a set of stable and far-more-loyal-than-in-OTL Germanic client states across the Rhine. That would make for a nice buffer, and potentially a future springboard for very gradual advances deeper into Germania.)

A key issue here is that Tiberius was the older brother, and also got along well with Augustus. When granting the two brothers honours, it is attested that augustus favoured Drusus. On the other hand, after Agrippa died in 12 BC in OTL, it was Tiberius who was ordered to divorce his wife (Vipsania Agrippina) and marry Agrippa's widow-- Augustus' daughter Julia. This rather indicates that Augustus was going to make Tiberius his heir even before Drusis died in 9 BC. Counter-argument: Drusus was married Antonia Minor, and that tie was considered an unbreakable one, whereas Vipsania was "merely" the daughter of the late Agrippa (from his first marriage). Can we say that if Drusus had lived on Augustus would have named him his heir, instead of Tiberius? Well, not would have, but certainly could have. That's good enough for this particular discussion thread. (Alternatively, we may switch the fates of the brothers, and imagine that tiberius falls off a horse in 9 BC, instead of Drusus. Problem solved.)

Having Nero Claudius Drusus as heir means having Germanicus as his heir (so this is a two-for-one, sice he's listed, too!), and we may assume that simple causality will prevent the circumstances of his OTL death in 19 AD. All of this keeps that bastard Sajanus nicely side-lined, which means the two elder sons of Germanicus (Nero Julius Caesar Germanicus and Drusus Julius Caesar Germanicus) don't die in 31 and 33 AD due to that one's perfidious influence. That should nicely keep Caligula out of the succession, at least.

---

Second best option: Marcus Vipsanius Agrippa. Tiberius and Drusus were only considered because Agrippa kicked the bucket at age 51. To the best of our knowledge, due to natural causes. Let's assume those are preventable causes (like random disease) rather than something more inevitable (like a heart condition or something). Agrippa survives. We may assume he'd be quite capable, although I still think Drusus would be better (if slightly, and in part based on the positive side effects his survival would have regarding Germania). Agrippa's heir would be either Gaius Caesar or Lucius Caesar, assuming that their father's survival butterflies away their own early deaths. As far as we know, they both died of illness. Do note that both were not known to be stellar leaders. A bit mediocre, really. This might be their youth and inexperience, but when one compares either to Germanicus (who would be heir is drusus succeeds Augustus), they can't really hold a candle to him. So for multiple reasons, I consider Drusus a much better heir than Agrippa.

---

Third best option: Tiberius, as in OTL, except Sejanus gets trampled by runaway goats or something.

Failing that escape clause, third best would instead be Marcus Claudius Marcellus, the actual heir by blood, closest male relative in the line of succession. If he survives, one may suppose it's going to be him. Since he was also married to the daughter of Augustus, this would yield the advantage (at least, some call it that) of establishing firm dynastic inheritance, and avoiding the precedent of adoption. Presumably, this would cause the Roman Empire to be much more dynastic in its succession approach, which some have argued would lend itself to greater stability (since it's always clear what the exact line of succession is). That and side-lining Sejanus would be the only advantages, though. I don't get the impression that Marcellus was a particularly exceptional leader, unlike the aforementioned candidates.
You know the phrase “sejanus was the worst” should really become a thing on this site and others place where history fans gathers on the internet. The can even make t shirts.

For the topic at hand well I have to agree with @Skallagrim about drusus. Like when julias and Agrippa eldest two die if drusus was around to inherit it would have gone so much better. Failing that I guess just take tibreus and make him give a shit about his job. Like seriously most of the mans reign was spent trying to delegate his duties to someone else even though the he was quite competent himself.
 
For having a Tiberius interested in doing his job I think you will need to butterfly his wedding to Julia in a way or another...
Tiberius was happy with his first wife Vipsania and loved her, being forced to divorce her for marrying Julia (plus the fact who Vipsania was pregnant at the time and lost their second child for that) was a sacrifice too great and the start of his refusal to do more than the strictly indispensable for governing Rome.
As I said Tiberius loved Vipsania, was happy with her, suffered greatly when casually happened to meet her after their divorce and had a great hate for her second husband (likely because he was her husband) while he and Julia were really incompatible in almost everything.
 
Agrippa’s way too old to be a good successor.

Strongly disagree. Agrippa was the best except that he was not accepted by the old nobility that could not bear an upstart becoming the second man in Rome, being consul 3 times, and marrying the emperor’s only daughter and fathering all his natural grandchildren.

Now, to answer the question of this thread, I would choose another successor.

If it was a real one that existed OTL, I would choose Lucius Aemilius Paullus, husband of Julia minor (the eldest daughter of Agrippa and Julia), which requires they be not disgraced.

If it was an alternate being, I would create a posthumous son of Gaius Julius Caesar and Calpurnia, born during the year 44, whom Octavian should have adopted to control him and avoid a rival, and who would have inherited his real father’s military talent and courage, of which Augustus was completely devoid.
 
Strongly disagree. Agrippa was the best except that he was not accepted by the old nobility that could not bear an upstart becoming the second man in Rome, being consul 3 times, and marrying the emperor’s only daughter and fathering all his natural grandchildren.

Now, to answer the question of this thread, I would choose another successor.

If it was a real one that existed OTL, I would choose Lucius Aemilius Paullus, husband of Julia minor (the eldest daughter of Agrippa and Julia), which requires they be not disgraced.

If it was an alternate being, I would create a posthumous son of Gaius Julius Caesar and Calpurnia, born during the year 44, whom Octavian should have adopted to control him and avoid a rival, and who would have inherited his real father’s military talent and courage, of which Augustus was completely devoid.
I'm talking about the fact that even if he lived much longer,by the time Augustus dies,he's gonna be pretty old himself(he's around the same age as Augustus). People this old aren't going to rule well.
 
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