I knew having both Protestant Imperial Habsburgs and Catholic Spanish Habsburgs probably wouldn't work, in that case I'll probably have Catherine of Aragon be born male (probably named Enrique/Afonso). Male-Catherine could wind up marrying Germaine of Foix, and combine this with Charles VIII marrying Catherine of Navarre, things are sure to get fun.
Yorkist TL - Planning Thread
- Thread starter Old1812
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I can not see an alliance between France and Milan when Louis, Duke of Orléans was close enough to Charles VIII and had hereditary rights on Milan... Plus Ludovico Sforza was allied with the Emperor and the tension between Milan and Naples can be butterflied if Gian Galeazzo’s wedding to Isabella of Aragon is annulled because was not consummated, eliminating any possible rival to the kids of Ludovico and Beatrice d’Este (who was a granddaughter of the King of Naples and had lived there for many years)
Thanks!
Duly noted. It could be really interesting to see what Italy looks like if the Italian Wars are diminished or don't happen at all.
If Edward V and Anne have a son at the earliest opportunity (1492 in OTL), I'm thinking of having the new Prince of Wales marry Elizabeth of Denmark (Electress of Brandenburg in OTL). She'd be about seven years older than her husband, but it could work. I'm not sure, but this could provide an opening for the Yorks to become king of Denmark. If the Danes still rebel against Christian II, but Christian has no surviving brothers (as in OTL) and his uncle Frederick is dead (in TTL), they could turn to Elizabeth and her husband. I admit it's a real stretch, the Danish privy council would most likely elect a major nobleman (just as they elected Christian I of Oldenburg).
@Zulfurium, how do you feel about the Yorks ruling your homeland?
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And we would have another King Edward and Queen Elizabeth (Most likely, a lot of the Wars of the Roses Princes were named Edward).
Well, guess it would be King Edmund and Queen Elizabeth, but then the names aren't that important I suppose. In a lot of TLs I've read Edward V names his son Edward also (which makes sense), but I thought I might change it up a little.
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Male Catherine will almost surely named Alfonso and the only plausible alternative is Fernando (after his father)...
A match with Germaine here looks really unlikely (in OTL Ferdinand married Germaine while signing an alliance with her uncle the King of France (and here said uncle will stay as Duke of Orléans and never be King of France while Navarre’s union with France will keep a lot of tension between France and Spain). As bride for Alfonso the most logical choices would be Margaret of Burgundy, an her ATL younger sister, the elder daughter of Charles VIII and Catherine or a princess of Naples (either an ATL younger daughter of Ferdinand I and Joanna or the eldest daughter of Ferdinand II and Elizabeth of York). Catherine of York also would work if not for the age difference...
Careful with the names and the branches of the family... Edward V’s first son is likely to be called Edward or Richard (William, Henry, Edmund Edmund and George, Arthur are possible but unlikely)
If Ferdinand and Isabella have two sons a wedding between Joanna and Francis of Austria-Burgundy would make little sense so I would suggest a switch of engagements with Francis of Burgundy marrying Anne of Brittany and Edward V marrying Joanna of Castile
Edmund after Edmund, Earl of Rutland works fine for the Prince of Wales. I just assumed it would be Edward, which I shouldn't have done.
I like the idea of Edward V marrying Juana in theory, but a nine-year age gap is a big one. Seven with Anne of Brittany is bad enough, let's not change it!
I'm glad someone does! If Elizabeth still becomes Protestant, she could be a major factor in pushing her husband into the Reformed camp.
If Ferdinand and Isabella have a spare, they won't be as worried who marries their daughters. I'm guessing Juan will still marry Margaret, but who will marry Alfonso is an interesting question. If the Navarre problem can be resolved via treaty, it seems possible the eldest daughter of Charles VIII could be Alfonso's bride. From Charles' perspective, France has the Salic law, so he doesn't have to worry about Alfonso inheriting France in the worst-case scenario. Going with a daughter of Ferdinand II and Elizabeth of York could have benefits - if they have no surviving male issue, a Trastámara will still rule Spain. I'm also wondering who I can marry to TTL's Charles V.
On the subject of alliances, I think it's likely France will look to Hungary and/or Poland-Lithuania (ruled by Matthias/John Corvinus ITTL) as a counter-balance to the Habsburgs. Navarre will be a sticking point, but it's possible a Spain with no long-term Habsburg ties could actually ally with France.
Why would Spain ally with France? They'll still have conflict of interests in Italy and no common enemies. Spain already was France's rival in Italy before Habsburg takeover.
Also, Italy and Bohemia/Hungary are another reasons, why conversion of Habsburg would be very bad move (if not pure idiocy) even without Spanish branch. It is great news for France, Corvinus and Jagiellons.
Also, Italy and Bohemia/Hungary are another reasons, why conversion of Habsburg would be very bad move (if not pure idiocy) even without Spanish branch. It is great news for France, Corvinus and Jagiellons.
Ferdinand and Isabella with two sons would be more careful than OTL in marrying all their daughters only to rulers or direct heirs as they have done OTL...
For having a Trastamara still ruling Spain you need to marry Juana to the eldest son of Ferdinand II of Naples and Elizabeth of York but the boy will be likely too young for her (if Elizabeth is engaged to Charles VIII until 1483, they will likely marry in 1484 and their son will be at least 5/6 years younger than Juana who is born at the end of 1479).
At this point is better keeping the Imperial house of Austria Catholic and marrying Juana to Francis after the death of Juan.
TTL Charles V would be? The son of Philip and Anne or the son of Francis and Juana? For the first a princess of Hungary&Bohemia, Poland, England or Milan will be good, for the second a princess of Portugal, France&Navarre or Naples.
What is the situation in Portugal now? I am asking because ATL Isabella of Portugal would be perfect for the son of Francis and Juana but need to be born from her OTL parents (is unlikely who Spain would want her if she is a descendant of Alfonso V and Joao II instead of a daughter of King Manuel)
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Charles V would be Philip and Anne's son in this case; I probably won't have Juana wed Francis here.
Well the list of possible brides for Charles is long: from a Burgundian POW the best brides would be a princess of England&Brittany, Lorraine or France&Navarre (for sealing a peace treaty), from an Imperial POW instead a princess of Bohemia, Hungary or Poland, the daughter/sister of a powerful vassal, ally or enemy if required for a peace treaty...
The best princess would be an ATL heiress of Bohemia (maybe followed by an heiress of Poland in a couple of generation) without Hungary because the kingdom of Bohemia with its electoral vote and lands at east are good but not lands at south so keep the Sforzas in Milan, their branch of Trastamara in Naples and someone else in Hungary and that united to the possess of Burgundy will likely consent to the Habsburg to keep their focus on Germany
Vladislaus II of Hungary & Bohemia was chosen by the Bohemian nobles because he didn't mind their Hussitism. If Vlad has a daughter (let's say he marries Dorothea of Brandenburg as was proposed IOTL as @Jan Olbracht has mentioned) and no sons, she'll probably grow up tolerant of reforming the Church structure, and her views could rub on her husband, in this case the Emperor.
If Charles has a younger brother, he could be married off to one of Edmund's sisters to shore up Anglo-Imperial relations.
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I acknowledge a Protestant Holy Roman Emperor would be unlikely, and have a lot of consequences, but how sure can we be that the Italian Wars will still happen on the scale they did IOTL? Charles VIII has to deal with an England-aligned Brittany, and while England is certainly not in great financial shape, but they still give him a headache. Would an Italian adventure be advisable in these cirmcumstances?
Protestantism did quite well in many regions of the Empire, so I don't think there will be that many Imperial princes joining France, even if they are devoutly Catholic.
Italian’s adventures happened in a precise scenario...
With Elizabeth of York married in Naples and the absence of tension between Naples and Milan caused by the strained relationship between Alfonso of Aragon and Ludovico Sforza (who will not be present or relevant with the annulment of the wedding between Gian Galeazzo and Isabella) is unlikely who France will be able to go in Italy...
Now you have no tension between Milan and Naples and a France who need to be careful because the tension between them on one side and Austria-Burgundy, England-Brittany and Spain on the other. Add to that the fact who in OTL during the Italian adventures France was allied with Spain (at least before the effective conquest of the Kingdom of Naples) while here relationship with Spain are strained because Charles is fighting against them as King (Consort) of Navarre while England has a big interest in Naples and Ludovico Sforza no reason for searching allies against Naples...
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While the Italian Wars are likely butterflied, a war over something is likely to break out before too long. Where it will be however, I'm not sure. There'll very likely be a war over Edward V's marriage to Brittany, I'm sure of that much. As a side note, trade with Naples will probably be good for England.
I'm not sure I follow the argumentation as to why the Habsburgs converting is a terrible idea. I agree it's very risky, but the argument seems to be that conversion severely jeopardizes Habsburg interests in Italy, Hungary, and Bohemia. However, the Italian Wars probably won't happen ITTL, Janos Corvinus is relatively secure as king of Hungary and probably has a son by this point. If Charles V marries the Bohemian heiress, this complicates matters, as Bohemia is divided into Hussite and Catholic factions*; whether or not the Emperor converts, one faction will be angered.
*At least I think this is how things worked in Bohemia at this point. I've also heard Matthias was ruler of Catholic Bohemia, while Vladislaus ruled the Hussites, or a mix of Catholics and Hussites. Can someone please explain this?
Mainly Catholic Moravia, Silesia and Lusatia rebelled against Hussite Czech King George of Podebrady in favour of Matthias. Czechia proper was mixed Hussite-Catholic and George remained in power then until death. Being desperate for any allies he promised throne to Vladislaus, oldest son of Polish King. Vladislaus himself was not sympathetic towards Hussitism, but had to deal with Hussites, who were significant political power in his kingdom.
As far as Portugal goes, Prince Afonso is still alive and married to Isabella. I'm not sure who Juana and Maria will marry, probably Francis of Burgundy or an Italian noble.
I'm thinking Richard of Shrewsbury and Catherine of York will be married to powerful English nobles to strengthen ties with the nobility. Probably a daughter of the Earl of Northumberland for Richard, and the Duke of Buckingham's heir for Catherine. To keep him from being used by France, I think it would be a good idea for Edward V to allow Henry Tudor to return so he can keep a close eye on him.
I'm still thinking about Zwingli and possibly a fictional German reformer (like Arhus in @Torbald's TL) lead the Reformation while Luther becomes a German analogue of Sir Thomas More. Due to Charles V's (should we call him Karl to keep things simple?) wife being Bohemian could allow Hussitism to influence the Reformation in Germany.
I'm thinking Richard of Shrewsbury and Catherine of York will be married to powerful English nobles to strengthen ties with the nobility. Probably a daughter of the Earl of Northumberland for Richard, and the Duke of Buckingham's heir for Catherine. To keep him from being used by France, I think it would be a good idea for Edward V to allow Henry Tudor to return so he can keep a close eye on him.
I'm still thinking about Zwingli and possibly a fictional German reformer (like Arhus in @Torbald's TL) lead the Reformation while Luther becomes a German analogue of Sir Thomas More. Due to Charles V's (should we call him Karl to keep things simple?) wife being Bohemian could allow Hussitism to influence the Reformation in Germany.
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