It looks like England may have to decide between war in Scotland or Brittany, I doubt they could handle both. In my OP I suggested having James III be murdered by the enemy lords, James IV either dead/in exile, and Albany is crowned king. While IOTL he was to be married to Cecily, if Elizabeth is free perhaps she would be a better match.
Yorkist TL - Planning Thread
- Thread starter Old1812
- Start date
At the moment, I'm leaning toward Charles VIII/Catherine of Navarre, but I'm open to other suggestions. It looks like we could see England and the HRE grow closer, and it seems the Italian Wars could be butterflied.
Planned family tree for England:
Edward IV (1442-1489) m. Elizabeth Woodville
Louis XI (1423-1483) m. Margaret of Scotland, m. Charlotte of Savoy
Edward IV (1442-1489) m. Elizabeth Woodville
Elizabeth (1466-1528) m. Alexander IV, King of Scotland
Cecily (1469-1507) m. Not sure
Edward V (1470-1529) King of England, m. Anne of Brittany, Duchess of Brittany
Anne (1475-1527) m. Philip I, Holy Roman Emperor
Bridget (1480-1517) nun
France:David III King of Scotland
Mary (1467-1482)Cecily (1469-1507) m. Not sure
Edward V (1470-1529) King of England, m. Anne of Brittany, Duchess of Brittany
Edward VI King of England
Arthur IV Duke of Brittany
Richard (1473-) m. Anne de Mowbray, m. Not sureArthur IV Duke of Brittany
Anne (1475-1527) m. Philip I, Holy Roman Emperor
Charles V Holy Roman Emperor
Catherine (1479-1527) m. Not sureBridget (1480-1517) nun
Louis XI (1423-1483) m. Margaret of Scotland, m. Charlotte of Savoy
Anne (1461-1522) Duchess of Bourbon
Joan (1464-1505) Duchess of Orleans
Charles VIII (1470-1525) m. Catherine of Navarre
Joan (1464-1505) Duchess of Orleans
Charles VIII (1470-1525) m. Catherine of Navarre
Charles IX King of France and Navarre
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Bit of a problem with Albany for an English marriage at that point - Albany was supported by Edward IV in 81/82 and 3 - and his brother was imprisoned - however he annoyed most of the Lords and James III managed to persuade them back to him (Edward's premature death meant Albany lost English support). To be honest if the details of his deal with Edward leaked the Scots might well have murdered him themselves - he promised Edward Scotland's southern shires and his promises would have made Scotland an English vassal.
If he did manage to defeat his brother and seize the crown - he is going to face continuous rebellions - the only time for an Anglo-Albany match is this period when Edward was on the outs with James and backed Albany - but Albany had already remarried (in 1480) and his wife was well connected and rich (his first marriage had been dissolved etc).
Catherine of Navarre is a pretty poor match for Charles VIII - at her accession under her mother's regency she is involved in civil war with her uncle and is going to require the French regent to commit troops and money to secure her full inheritance - and the promise of long-term and continuous conflict with Aragon - the pressure from many of her subjects was to commit to a Spanish marriage (Juan of Asturias was the hope of many).
Again its a narrow window - and comes at a point straight after Louis XI's death and at the point when the French regent is trying to establish herself against internal French opposition etc.
Well France will still forced to support Catherine of Navarre as her mother Magdalena is the sister of Louis XI so a wedding between Charles and Catherine has sense without his engagement to Margaret of Austria. And Charles and Catherine’s engagement if not the wedding itself will happen in the months between her ascension on the throne and the death of Louis XI...
Plus Catherine and her mother were against a Spanish match (in OTL she married the son of a powerful French lord as her cousin was engaged to Margaret of Austria-Burgundy, here Cahrles is either free or still engaged to Elizabeth of York and Louis XI was never enthusiast about it and in any case Catherine is a better match)
The problem is that in OTL - Magdalena received very little in French support - from her niece the French Regent - Charles VIII himself pushed for John of Foix (the male heir) to be recognised in Navarre.
Magdalena's decision to marry Catherine to John D'Albret was in part to shore up support due to his family's connections and wealth (she seems to have not expected much in the way of support from her brother or nephew) - the Parlement of Navarre favoured John of Asturias and Navarre had rival noble factions battling for influence - many siding with the Spanish monarch's or John of Foix.
The decision in 1483 when Catherine's brother dies in January is going to fall to Louis XI - Magdalena's brother (the same brother who had already confirmed some territorial losses from Navarre to Castille twenty years earlier). He may well opt for his 15-year-old niece and damn the consequences - but this will almost certainly plunge him into war with Ferdinand and Isabella (who will probably gain Imperial and English support) - his death that summer means the real decision will rest with the Regent Anne who may think an alternate match to be more lucrative (Ferdinand might well offer Charles VIII one of his younger daughter's to try and prevent a Navarrese match)
On paper you are right Catherine is a reigning monarch offering France the chance to absorb the Kingdom of Navarre as it had tried on numerous occasions - the trouble was it also gave France (and by the time the French royal house did ally itself fully with the Navarre house it was already a rump of the Kingdom basically having lost Spanish Navarre to Spain) a troublesome, not exactly rich, divided Kingdom with little guarantees of success in holding it. (in fact the exact circumstances the English are going to face in holding Brittany in the long term)
The Navarrese who supported Catherine might actually turn to John of Foix to avoid absorption into the Kingdom of France seeing him as their best hope to maintain independence - also Foix was the brother in law of Orleans who himself would be in opposition to the French regent and was heir presumptive until Charles VIII had children.
Do I think the match possible - of course it is - do I think it's as great a match as the other options not really to be honest and once Charles is of age and trying to enforce his claims in Naples other options might give him better advantage
Magdalena's decision to marry Catherine to John D'Albret was in part to shore up support due to his family's connections and wealth (she seems to have not expected much in the way of support from her brother or nephew) - the Parlement of Navarre favoured John of Asturias and Navarre had rival noble factions battling for influence - many siding with the Spanish monarch's or John of Foix.
The decision in 1483 when Catherine's brother dies in January is going to fall to Louis XI - Magdalena's brother (the same brother who had already confirmed some territorial losses from Navarre to Castille twenty years earlier). He may well opt for his 15-year-old niece and damn the consequences - but this will almost certainly plunge him into war with Ferdinand and Isabella (who will probably gain Imperial and English support) - his death that summer means the real decision will rest with the Regent Anne who may think an alternate match to be more lucrative (Ferdinand might well offer Charles VIII one of his younger daughter's to try and prevent a Navarrese match)
On paper you are right Catherine is a reigning monarch offering France the chance to absorb the Kingdom of Navarre as it had tried on numerous occasions - the trouble was it also gave France (and by the time the French royal house did ally itself fully with the Navarre house it was already a rump of the Kingdom basically having lost Spanish Navarre to Spain) a troublesome, not exactly rich, divided Kingdom with little guarantees of success in holding it. (in fact the exact circumstances the English are going to face in holding Brittany in the long term)
The Navarrese who supported Catherine might actually turn to John of Foix to avoid absorption into the Kingdom of France seeing him as their best hope to maintain independence - also Foix was the brother in law of Orleans who himself would be in opposition to the French regent and was heir presumptive until Charles VIII had children.
Do I think the match possible - of course it is - do I think it's as great a match as the other options not really to be honest and once Charles is of age and trying to enforce his claims in Naples other options might give him better advantage
If the king of England decides to join the Reformation ITTL (more like Germany ITTL, as there won't be a Great Matter), it'll likely result in a civil war, considering the number of potential heirs beyond Edward V and his children. In order, you've got:
- Edward V's sons
- Richard of Shrewsbury's sons
- Edmund of Clarence and his sons
- Richard of Gloucester's sons
- the de la Poles
If any of these stay Catholic, that's somebody the Catholics can rally around. Perhaps that could be the Protestants' strategy, let the Catholics tear each other apart, solidy their own support, and beat whoever's left.
- Edward V's sons
- Richard of Shrewsbury's sons
- Edmund of Clarence and his sons
- Richard of Gloucester's sons
- the de la Poles
If any of these stay Catholic, that's somebody the Catholics can rally around. Perhaps that could be the Protestants' strategy, let the Catholics tear each other apart, solidy their own support, and beat whoever's left.
My bad - figuring out what to do with Elizabeth of York has been bothering me for a while. I just can't find anyone to marry her to.
If France ends up in a war with Spain over Navarre in the 1480s, will they be able to wage war with England over Brittany? I doubt Charles will be able to begin his campaign in Italy by 1494 in any case.
All depend of the timing of the war, IMO, Charles VIII would want to avoid a war with Ferdinand of Aragon, he would try to solve the problem through diplomacy, (Charles VIII before launching his Italian invasion tried to resolve all the conflit with his neighbour, he would try to do the same.) he would give up Roussilon and give a decend amount of money to Ferdiand in exchange of accepting the wedding, after Ferdinand could refuse or could accept and still join a war later or would try to improve his control on Spain or meddle in Italian affairs
Charles VIII could launch an professional armies of 20 000/30 000 men with a powerfull artillery, I think that in case of invasion you could add communal millitias.
Charles VIII could launch an professional armies of 20 000/30 000 men with a powerfull artillery, I think that in case of invasion you could add communal millitias.
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The issue with that is James III's widow (she was relatively well regarded) and her three sons - James Duke of Rothesay (OTL James IV), James Duke of Ross and John Earl of Mar - hard to get rid of all three of them unless its Scotland that has the Prince's in the Tower?
You can always kill off Anne de la Tour in childbirth or butterflying her wedding to Albany as that would be after your POD...
John of Foix was legally was only the heir presuntive of Catherine until she had children in Navarre as the succession in Navarre was male preference only so Catherine was heiress to her brother.
Maybe Louis XI living a little longer (like another year) will make easier the Navarrese match and reduce the power of both Foix and Orléans in making damages in Navarre.
You can always having Edward IV expanding his alliance network and marrying Elizabeth somewhere else (maybe in Naples where the future Ferdinand II was three years younger than her) and keep Cecily as Queen of Scotland married to James IV
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Here's my rough outline for England:
Edward V has two sons by Anne of Brittany, Edmund I king of England, and Arthur, duke of Brittany.
Richard of Shrewsbury's holdings were split on his death, and the titles of Duke of York was given to one son and Duke of Norfolk to another.
Edmund, the Earl of Warwick was restored to the title of Duke of Clarence, along with about half of the Warwick inheritance. He has also had issue.
Richard of Gloucester remarried after Anne's death to John Howard's eldest daughter (Howard has been made Earl of Oxford), and had issue by her.
England will gradually see the Reformation spread, with Edward V tolerating most of it despite his Catholicism. Edmund becomes king about ~1530, and he's been making quiet preparations to convert for a few years before and after his coronation, securing the loyalty of the cousins he trusts.
When Edmund follows his Habsburgs cousins and becomes a Protestant, the remaining English Catholics rally around Norfolk, with Gloucester, and Suffolk supporting him. France and Spain provide them with money and extra troops, and the civil war becomes a bloody stalemate.
Portugal decides to enter the mix, preying on Suffolk's mistrust of Norfolk, supporting him when he rebels against Norfolk's rebellion. This division allows Edmund and the Protestants to pull off a victory, with most of England's Catholic nobility dead, and begin converting the rest of England.
Edward V has two sons by Anne of Brittany, Edmund I king of England, and Arthur, duke of Brittany.
Richard of Shrewsbury's holdings were split on his death, and the titles of Duke of York was given to one son and Duke of Norfolk to another.
Edmund, the Earl of Warwick was restored to the title of Duke of Clarence, along with about half of the Warwick inheritance. He has also had issue.
Richard of Gloucester remarried after Anne's death to John Howard's eldest daughter (Howard has been made Earl of Oxford), and had issue by her.
England will gradually see the Reformation spread, with Edward V tolerating most of it despite his Catholicism. Edmund becomes king about ~1530, and he's been making quiet preparations to convert for a few years before and after his coronation, securing the loyalty of the cousins he trusts.
When Edmund follows his Habsburgs cousins and becomes a Protestant, the remaining English Catholics rally around Norfolk, with Gloucester, and Suffolk supporting him. France and Spain provide them with money and extra troops, and the civil war becomes a bloody stalemate.
Portugal decides to enter the mix, preying on Suffolk's mistrust of Norfolk, supporting him when he rebels against Norfolk's rebellion. This division allows Edmund and the Protestants to pull off a victory, with most of England's Catholic nobility dead, and begin converting the rest of England.
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A York-Neapolitan match could be interesting, especially as the Italian Wars will probably be butterflied by a Yorkist Brittany.
If Charles VIII does marry Catherine of Navarre, it seems relations with France will immediately go from bad to really bad, and war seems possible. The basic loose alliances are England/HRE/Spain/Naples and France/Milan. If the Imperial Habsburgs convert, it could make sense for the Spanish Habsburgs to seek an alliance with France.
Also, opinions on the civil war in England from my previous post are quite welcome.
One thing that jumps to my mind is that I can't see the Hapsburgs ever turning Protestant. Edmund, perhaps. His Hapsburg cousins, never. Maybe it's his Scottish ones he follows instead..
Can you tell me more about what caused the Habsburgs to not be receptive to Protestantism, but the Yorks could be? I'm not disputing, I think you're probably right, I'd just like to know more on this.
Yorks have no other branch outside England while Habsburg sits on the throne of arch-Catholic Spain, Yorks are far away from Rome, have no vital interest in Italy.