Yet another World War Two thread...

...let me set the stage first for the question...and yes this is a major alternate history...and one day I might write this into a scenario if i get enough positive feedback...

...For one reason or another-either hitler is killed or has a change of mind or something of the such-Germany does not attack and attempt an invasion of Russia...meantime with millions of more 'free' soldiers he quickly finishes off the British in North Africa and at the same time-with an allience with Finland-invades and captures Sweden...

...The battle of britain is still lost as in OTL and the coast of France, the Low Countries and Germany boardering the British channel out fortified...

...the waiting game goes on...

...in the East Japan attacks Pearl Harbour and in a change to our timeline has troops prepared who land and capture pearl harbour with minimal losses...plus capture several intact US war ships...

...Germany declares war on the US of A as in OTL...

...with a temporary 'stalemate' between Britain and Germany, and with the USSR still at peace with Germany, the USA turns most of its forces towards the Japanese...though some are sent to aid in the defense of Britain...

...1944...Germany tries an attempt to invade Britain...and fails...sixty thousand German troops are either killed or captured...

...without the draining war on the soviets...more resources for research, V rockets come out earlier and begin to pound away on southern England...in the east, defenses are being constructed as the relationship between the two powers becomes more strained...

...Germany aids north Irish peoples...and helps start/fund/supply a rebellion...as troops are sent to put down the fighting a second sealion is launched against Britain and gains a foothold...overhead, the British air force is being driven back by the new classes of semi-modern fighters...

...by the end of 1945, britain is in german hands with an independent Ireland and Scotland and Wales (who are in a close allience with germany).
British government and royal family flee to Canada.

...the tide has all but turned for the Finish in their long war against the Soviets and Germany, seeking to gain ground, launches a surprise attack on the Finish in the rear. Fighting a war on two fronts, they manage to hold out for several months before total collaspe.

...1947...the tide if turning for the Japanese who have lost Pearl harbour and the neighing Hawaii islands along with Midway. USA has captured several key locations in the islands north of Australia.

...Soviets launch an Invasion of "British" territories in Middle east. Germany sents five divisions under Rommel to "grab as much as they can"
...Soviets strike from the north. Germany through Turkey and Egypt with three german trained and equipped Italian divisions. The race for the oil fields of the middle east is on...

...so what do you think?

...and a question...by 1950, with germany going strong, what do you think their military technology would look like...?
 

Anaxagoras

Banned
Scotland allied with Nazi Germany?!?!?!?!?!?!?!

They would have fought on the last hilltop of the Highlands before giving in to the Nazis!
 
Bavarian Raven

Some interesting ideas but a number I think are seriously unlikely. I.e.

a) I can't see the Japanese successfully landing at Pearl, not without giving up most of their southern conquests, which were far more important to them. They lacked both the manpower and even more importantly the shipping. Even if somehow they did manage both, especially with the US concentrating more heavily on the Pacific it would crush Japan earlier rather than later than OTL.

b) I suspect your underestimating the logistical problems for the Germans in taking Egypt. Unless you also had the Soviets attacking from the north. Especially without a war in the east prompting Britain to aid Russia. The equipment sent to Russia were fairly insignificant there but could have had a big impact in either the western desert or Malaya say.

Not saying its impossible for the Germans to reach Egypt. However would be pretty difficult and probably wouldn't occur before 42 at the earliest realistically.

c) Similarly, while the Germans might isolate Britain and starve it out if they threw everything at it and weren't distracted by the eastern conflict I think a successful invasion would be very, very difficult. Once Britain has built up a basic level of military strength and especially once the US is also in the conflict. No matter how many hundreds of divisions the Germans have their problem is getting the forces and their supplies across the Channel. There is no way the Germans are going to get naval superiority and its going to be very difficult to get any air superiority. The allies will probably waste a lot of effort on a bombing campaign but they will have such huge reserves and the big advantage of fighting on home ground. Not to mention an increasing technological lead unless the Nazi structure is totally changed.

As I say you might see Britain starved into peace, or possibly as a result of rocket bombardment or reduced US support. However I think a successful invasion would be virtually impossible.

d) I think you mean southern Irish rather than northern as the later are mostly Protestant loyalists and the ratio to the Catholic minority was greater in that time period. Also the southern Irish would have little reason to want a war and many to avoid getting dragged in. A few hard liners might be tempted but I suspect most would oppose such a disaster for them. Don't forget that by 45, not only would you have potentially very large British forces but several million US troops.

e) Not quite sure what is happening with Finland. You seem to have it allied with Germany to invade Sweden, which is highly unlikely. Then some years later reference to a long Finnish - Soviet conflict in which Germany back-stab Finland? While they might be untrustworthy enough to try that it would alienate the rest of their allies in Europe as all of them would fear they were next.

f) You also have to get across the problem of what happened to the bomb. With things being worse for the allies it might be delayed rather than arriving earlier. However difficult to see it being delayed more than 1-2 years at most. Once that happens, especially with concern that Germany will get the bomb and its rocket attacks on Britain it will be used against Germany.

As I say, some interesting ideas but I think you would need to consider the above points. Also, even without Hitler, as Michael say a German-Soviet conflict would be very likely sooner or later. Both because of mutual ideological hostility and simple rivalry. Neither would trust the other to get too strong and as he said the failed German attack on Britain in 44, even with relatively small casualties, could be a trigger if not before. [Not sure whether you might see attempted negotiations between Stalin and the western powers before or after the start of such a conflict.

Steve


Steve
 
Battle of Britain

The battle of britain is still lost as in OTL

Huh? What do you mean? Is the BOB lost by the Brits or the Germans? If it is lost by the Germans there is no way that they are going to attempt a Sealion with air superiority.
 
Huh? What do you mean? Is the BOB lost by the Brits or the Germans? If it is lost by the Germans there is no way that they are going to attempt a Sealion with air superiority.

Bulldawg85

I read it as the Germans lose in 40. However think Raven is arguing that without the war in Russia, Germany could gain air superiority by about 43 onwards. Which I think would be difficult with the US still neutral and just about impossible with them in the war. [Presuming they don't cut the Atlantic supply line in which case no invasion is necessary.

Steve
 
British government and royal family flee to Canada.
I've got to lay this one to rest. Britain's government would not have been welcome in Canada, which was getting more & more independent-minded in the '40s. (Not that you could tell by W.L. M. King...:mad:) Bermuda or the Bahamas is more likely. George & Elizabeth, yes...
 
I wrote a TL like this called 'No Barbarossa' the allies are in the shit until the Soviets attack the Nazis in 1946
 
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My thoughts....

1. Attacking Sweden is just not going to happen. Sweden was Germany's main source of steel at the time. Plus, I doubt Finland could conquer Sweden; I may be wrong here.

2. There's no way in hell, heaven, or earth that Germany will launch a SECOND Sealion if the first fails as horribly as it does here.

3. Scotland and Wales would never enter a close alliance with the Nazis.

4. The U.S.S.R. will eventually come into conflict with the Third Reich.
 
Thoughts

2.) US industrial base is the same - that is the world's largest manufacturing base which could fight a two front war and aid the Russians is still in tact. German Industrial base is still harrassed by bobming campaigns. With this, how can the Germans and the Japanese win?

3.) With that said, after a failed German attempt in 1944, wouldn't the allies be that even more prepared in 1945. Would not allied bobming campaigns take out the German V weopon.

4.) Allied Strategy - Defend western US coast, Britain, sea lanes, middle east. focus on Japan while bombing the crap out of Germans
1942 - build up in middle east
1943 - Allies conquer Indo-china Burma
1944 - Allies take Phillapeans, make progress in North Africa
1945 - Game over for Japan, conquest of Africa
1946 - Game over for Italy with allied med control, I take it that Italy still sucks
1947 - Game over for Germany, Russia mops up in Eastern Europe after German forces have to move south. Allied landings in Scandanavia and France

Even if it takes longer for the Allies to subdue Japan, there is no way Germany can survive.

End game - Cold war between allies and Soviets still is a result with Germans conquered. Allies in more control of Germany, Poland, Czech, Hungary. Soviets control Romania, Slovakia, Eastern Poland

Would the Germans capture the middle east in 41? Maybe that is where US troops land in 1942. The Brits and the US make the middle east a troop build up area. This allows them to attack the Germans in North Africa and the Japanese in Indochina.

5.) What is the result of US carriers post Hawaii invasion in '41? Were they wiped out or withdrawn to defend Western US? There would also be no Midway Miracle as US would be more condervative, defend West Coast with carriers.
 
The sealion wargame carried out at sandhurst in the 70's concluded that 400,000 germans are killed or captured, and that's if the battle of britain is still in the balance.
 
The sealion wargame carried out at sandhurst in the 70's concluded that 400,000 germans are killed or captured, and that's if the battle of britain is still in the balance.

BP

I find that very hard to believe as I can't see them trying let alone getting that many people across the Channel. Are you sure that's not a typo for 40k?

Steve
 
Sweden, like other neutrals such as Switzerland, is not invaded as it does all it can to appease Hitler until the Allies are breathing down their necks.

There is no invasion of Hawaii by the Japanese.

1) The mere effort would break the back of Japan's merchant marine and guarantee disaster in most of her other operations OR cancel them for six months to a year(assuming no heavy losses off Hawaii).

2) Japan would require something like @50,000 properly equipped troops to beat the soldiers, marines and other military personnel.

3) The absolute goal at Pearl Harbor was surprise, which could have been lost, and dragging most of Japan's larger mechant ships along presents a much easier target to spot or to NOT spot in all the places these ships are supposed to be while also delaying the operation due to the lower speeds of the merchant ships.

If the US is alerted several days before the Japanese arrive then let's hope Nagumo has the moral courage to cancel the attack and tell Tokyo to stop any other offensives.


stevep, definitely a typo. The actual war game concluded that the Germans never even finish the second of three stages landing the first nine divisions. Assuming a total loss of all troops landed that would be something on the order of 140,000 lost and the gamers also concluded that 20-25% of the troops were pulled out, without equipment naturally. The major results were a moral boost to the UK and the crippling of the Luftwaffe for months to come, plus serious damage to German production until spring of 1941.
 
BP

I find that very hard to believe as I can't see them trying let alone getting that many people across the Channel. Are you sure that's not a typo for 40k?

Steve

No that is 400,000. Basically the Luftwaffe attack the home fleet and force it to hide up at scapa flow. When the Admiralty hear that the proper invasion is under way they order every ship down to the channel but it takes about four days, by which time the Germans have ferried 400,000 troops across. The Home Fleet cut off the supply lines, then the British launch a counter attack and force the Germans back to the coast. Succumbing to the inevitable, the German commander surrenders. I can't remember exactly but it was something like 50,000 deaths and 350,000 captured.
 
there is no way short of not fucking with the soviets and the americans to win ww2 for the germans. but if they did win then wed have a threeway cold war hum interesting secario
 
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