Yesterday's Tommorow: A Roman Steam TL

[Elfwine]

Don, Great thread. Love the idea of the steam engine being refined during Roman era.
For those that say it can't happen blah, blah, blah....ignore them . This is your time line. If they don't like it, they don't have to read it. The pc/laptop (or whatever device they are using to view this site) does afterall have an off button and other sites are availble! As long as you don't include Martians, magic or anything of that ilk, then I'm in.
Keep up the good work.

So, blatantly ignoring of technological and scientific limitations is okay, but calling it magic is not.

I've chosen for the most part to give up reading this and trying to help Don Megel, as he clearly doesn't want any help based on actual knowledge of steam technology, but this idea really deserves better than this kind of kind of "Ignore the critics and listen to the cheering fanboys" attitude.

 

[RedDogGaz]

Elfwine, It's a story for crying out loud. You don't have to read it. Maybe if more attention had been paid to the original steam powered device, the technological advancements would have been made. Who knows? Certainly not me or you.

If you don't like where this is going, don't read it. Simples.

I have started to read some time lines on the site, found that I don't like them so don't subscribe or look on them later.

Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Regards,

 

[Elfwine]

Elfwine, It's a story for crying out loud. You don't have to read it. Maybe if more attention had been paid to the original steam powered device, the technological advancements would have been made. Who knows? Certainly not me or you.

If you don't like where this is going, don't read it. Simples.

I have started to read some time lines on the site, found that I don't like them so don't subscribe or look on them later.

Lets agree to disagree and leave it at that.

Regards,

It being a story is no excuse for the author treating the technological issues in the way of the developments he wants as irrelevant. The original device, as has been covered over and over again, has no potential to lead anywhere but a dead end - which means essentially people are starting from scratch, with less knowledge about just about everything necessary to build a practical steam engine than the people who historically took far longer to produce one than has happened in TTL..

It does the author and the idea a great disservice to encourage ignoring the issues in the way and just saying "Who knows?" - because the people who have actually studied the development of the steam engine do know what might be possible. The development of a working steam engine isn't something subject to random whimsy like say Richard I not being hit by a crossbow bolt.

In all practical senses, this timeline relies on magic to work. That the author doesn't come out and say so is not an excuse for refusing to read up on the subject he's writing a POD about.

 

[RedDogGaz]

Elfwine,

As I said, lets agree to disagree.

My final points would be do we know everything there is to know about the Roman Empire? Answer: No. Given time who is to say they couldn't have worked metal etc to produce an effective steam engine (not a locomotive mind, just a static engine)?

Surely the point of AH is to go down a road that, as far as we know, wasn't or (as per your argument) couldn't be taken in real life. If we stick to real life then we are left with history.

I have to agree with you that as far as we know the Romans couldn't do this, but we are talking about Alternate History here. Why not "give 'em a break" and let the story roll?

Regards,

 

[Elfwine]

Elfwine,

As I said, lets agree to disagree.

My final points would be do we know everything there is to know about the Roman Empire? Answer: No. Given time who is to say they couldn't have worked metal etc to produce an effective steam engine (not a locomotive mind, just a static engine)?

Well, it's theoretically possible that they might have had information we have no reason to believe that they had, but its also theoretically possible that Caesar was a pod person and Lovecraft was a ninja.

Surely the point of AH is to go down a road that, as far as we know, wasn't or (as per your argument) couldn't be taken in real life. If we stick to real life then we are left with history.

There's a huge difference between "the path not taken", and absolute fantasy. For the Romans to develop steam technology over the course of decades if not centuries of experiments is imaginable - no one has argued that's flat out impossible. This particular attempt at writing about steam technology without understanding it and actively trying to avoid understanding, it on the other hand, is another issue entirely, and it's the attempts to keep from learning about or acknowledging the problems that are why it is magic in everything except the author using the M word.

I have to agree with you that as far as we know the Romans couldn't do this, but we are talking about Alternate History here. Why not "give 'em a break" and let the story roll?

Regards,

For the same reason the order of Bocagery exists in the first place. (If you haven't read the Frisian Island thread, sufficient to say it involved the author ignoring numerous experts faulting the idea).

This isn't a choice between story and boring science, this is a choice between something that could actually happen - but didn't - and something that couldn't happen.

 

[DTanza]

Jesus. Yes, the science is suspect at best and ludicrous at worst. Yes, I believe DonMegel should be a bit more open to criticism. But there's a difference between criticism and dung slinging.

The idea is entertaining, the writing is good, the story is fun, I'm perfectly willing to forgive the science because it's a damn fine read. Keep it up, maybe open a little more to criticism, though I hardly consider Elfwine and Flubber to be constructive critics.

 

[pvicente]

Here's to hoping that this picks up again...

It's refreshing to see a timeline picking up an idea and running with it just for fun, yes, it isn't terribly realistic but it doesn't need to be, it's fun and when you think about it real life has plenty of peculiar "unrealistic" turning points anyway , go down this path and see where it leads and let others build their own Roman Steam ideas more to they liking.

This place needs more stuff than yet another Byzantine TL.

Come on, let's have some more steaming Romans!

 

[Elfwine]

Jesus. Yes, the science is suspect at best and ludicrous at worst. Yes, I believe DonMegel should be a bit more open to criticism. But there's a difference between criticism and dung slinging.

The idea is entertaining, the writing is good, the story is fun, I'm perfectly willing to forgive the science because it's a damn fine read. Keep it up, maybe open a little more to criticism, though I hardly consider Elfwine and Flubber to be constructive critics.

Speaking for myself, I've tried to be constructive. When its clear that DonMegel is completely unwilling to accept that the foundation of his idea doesn't work, there's not a lot more positive to say other than that he's deliberately rejecting research and realism in favor of . . . not even in favor of story but in favor of wanting to tell something a particular way.

I'm not willing to forgive sloppy science when nothing is stopping DonMegel from having good writing and a good story and good science except his own unwillingness to accept that the science is gibberish.

 

[DonMegel]

This is becoming ridiculous. I don't need your forgiveness to write about this. If you do not like it you do not have to read the thread.

I have been perfectly willing to accept criticism about anything BUT my POD, which is the basis for the entire story. I am sorry you don't approve of my POD but I don’t need your approval.

I will not address this issue again.

 

[Elfwine]

This is becoming ridiculous. I don't need your forgiveness to write about this. If you do not like it you do not have to read the thread.

I have been perfectly willing to accept criticism about anything BUT my POD, which is the basis for the entire story. I am sorry you don't approve of my POD but I don’t need your approval.

I will not address this issue again.

No, you don't need my approval or my forgiveness or that of anyone else. But if you don't like it being criticized, going LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU whenever someone points out any of the issues involved with your concept that somehow Hero(n)'s invention will lead somewhere and with the near-total lack of foundation for the basics needed for a workable steam engine to be developed . . . is not a good idea.

If your POD is "Hero(n) had a model for a working steam engine", then at a bare minimum you need to know what that would involve, which you have persistently refused to listen to and refused to research.

Why? Seriously, why?

 

[pvicente]

No, you don't need my approval or my forgiveness or that of anyone else. But if you don't like it being criticized, going LALALALALALA I CAN'T HEAR YOU whenever someone points out any of the issues involved with your concept that somehow Hero(n)'s invention will lead somewhere and with the near-total lack of foundation for the basics needed for a workable steam engine to be developed . . . is not a good idea.

If your POD is "Hero(n) had a model for a working steam engine", then at a bare minimum you need to know what that would involve, which you have persistently refused to listen to and refused to research.

Why? Seriously, why?

I don't know about the author, but I would love to see this carry on because it's a genuinely fun idea and a new approach, when everybody thinks of steam engines they think of them starting at coal mines, factories and such, here we have them starting at ceremonies, spectacles and rich people's entertainments, I like it!

I want to see where it goes, I want to see Roman steam contraptions.

There! Happy now? I guess not, but that's life buddy, people do things that aren't exactly what we want, deal with it.

This place already has moderators, it doesn't need a self-appointed "Realism Police", stop trying to disrupt other people's TLs and go make your own if you care so much about the subject.

 

[Elfwine]

I don't know about the author, but I would love to see this carry on because it's a genuinely fun idea and a new approach, when everybody thinks of steam engines they think of them starting at coal mines, factories and such, here we have them starting at ceremonies, spectacles and rich people's entertainments, I like it!

I want to see where it goes, I want to see Roman steam contraptions.

Which in and of itself is a fine idea and is one of the reasons why I mind this being so ill thought out scientifically - examining how that would work is a project I'd like to support.

There! Happy now? I guess not, but that's life buddy, people do things that aren't exactly what we want, deal with it.

In the same spirit: You "deal with" the fact that people like me have a problem with it.

This place already has moderators, it doesn't need a self-appointed "Realism Police", stop trying to disrupt other people's TLs and go make your own if you care so much about the subject.

Disrupt other people's TLs? Oh noes, advising the author to actually try to be realistic in his science and being critical of not doing so!

How is that more disruptive than "YAY I LOVE THIS!" posts? Because it's not overflowing with praise?

Frankly, there's no reason why the author can't do something with good, solid science and have steam developments early on be toys for the rich and the other entertaining parts. He chooses to ignore the former.

If we can say Sealion is obvious ASB, we can say that bad science is little better.

 

[luis3007]

OMG.....again???

Can we stop the trolling and whining PLEASE??

This is a nice story, entretaining and well written (which is becoming a rarity these days). Hope you keep up and finish this one DonMegel!!!

 

[Elfwine]

Pretty sure accusing other members of being trolls is frowned on.

And the last timeline post was three weeks ago, so DonMegel might have dropped this project.

 

[Esopo]

Pretty sure accusing other members of being trolls is frowned on.

And the last timeline post was three weeks ago, so DonMegel might have dropped this project.

Maybe the repeated attacks to his pod helped the timeline to die. Realism euthanasia?

 

[Elfwine]

Maybe the repeated attacks to his pod helped the timeline to die. Realism euthanasia?

Maybe.

Speaking for myself, I hope he's not feeling like there's any attempt to drive him off AH - I certainly have intentions as far from that as possible. This site needs more talented writers.