Yellow Turban Victory take 2

Hello gentlemen,

If you don't mind, I'd like to give a old topic I started a while back a second chance. That being if the Yellow Turban Rebellion of China toppled the Han Dynasty.

First of all since they were very devot Taoists, meaning that they would probably turn Taoism into the state religion of China. In the long run, since it was such a long time go in Chinese history and not that much long after both Confusionism and Taoism were created, with the former being deeply embedded into Chinese principals, lawmaking society ect. today, perhaps the usurpers of the Han will largely kick out Confusianism as the primary foundation of China's doctrine of governance for the centuries to come.

Since in our timeline, the Rebellion was the prelude to the famous Three Kingdoms period (220-280 AD) which kept China not legitimately unified for another 4 centuries. Therefore in the short run, the Yellow Turban's leader Zhang Bao would've established his own dynasty that would've lasted another couple of centuries, meaning no Three Kingdoms period and thus, a longer-lasting unified China. Perhaps them defeating the Han would've been for the better of China. However, a Three Kingdoms-type period would've only been delayed though.

Care to elaborate?
 
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First things first, the philosophical Taoism which rivals Confucianism promotes a minimal government and doesn't really look like something a cult-turned-rebellion is looking for.

Then there's the religious aspect of Taoism, which was quite new at that time (only a few decades), was considered a occult (or occults). There were two prominent sects at that time, one was the "Five Pecks of Rice" Tao, founded by Zhang Daolin, which went on and became the precursor of the modern Taoism(s), another is Zhang Jiao/Jue 's "Taiping(Pacific)" Tao, which is essentially a mystery to modern scholars as their leaders died or were killed and their teachings were not systematically recorded by anyone outside of their cult, thus when the rebellion dissolved, the religion went with it. We simply don't know enough about it to estimate its impact on the society.
 
First things first, the philosophical Taoism which rivals Confucianism promotes a minimal government and doesn't really look like something a cult-turned-rebellion is looking for.

Then there's the religious aspect of Taoism, which was quite new at that time (only a few decades), was considered a occult (or occults). There were two prominent sects at that time, one was the "Five Pecks of Rice" Tao, founded by Zhang Daolin, which went on and became the precursor of the modern Taoism(s), another is Zhang Jiao/Jue 's "Taiping(Pacific)" Tao, which is essentially a mystery to modern scholars as their leaders died or were killed and their teachings were not systematically recorded by anyone outside of their cult, thus when the rebellion dissolved, the religion went with it. We simply don't know enough about it to estimate its impact on the society.

Agreed. Taoism is seen as a "passive" philosophy.

It does not make it attractive to the would-be Chinese rulers although it might be able to be combined with other philosophies.
 
what about Mohism?

The Mohism didn't died out even during the Eastern Han, so it has its chance; also, its pacifist policy appeals the population. Yet the doctrines of altruism, banning music and all kinds of ceremonies might upset the intelligentsia and the would-be emperors. Maybe a syncretism between Confucianism and Mohism or other ways to have this ideology less "radical" could made it more popular among the scholars and the population, along with a charismatic leader maybe a Mohist rebellion could have happened and succeed.
 
Well firstly, governing an Empire the size of China does require some help in the form of a bureaucracy; and the bureaucracy by this time tends towards Confucianism. So any non-Confucian dynasty will have to deal with this fact if they don't want to be toppled in around 10 years.

I don't particularly agree that Taoism per se is unreasonable for a Chinese dynasty - one could make theological adjustments and say that while in the long term the Dao must be allowed to run its course, this could mean much pain in the short-term and that's why the government must intervene.

In any case, given that the Yellow Turbans were a rather grassroots peasant rebellion it doesn't seem unreasonable that if the Zhangs had won, there could have been significant concessions to the peasants to run their own affairs, which would remove a large part of the ancient Chinese government.

The real risk for a Yellow Turban Dynasty is probably heresy and small cults. I find it unlikely that the Zhangs would allow other philosophies to flourish alongside their teachings, so you'd have all sorts of quasi-religious persecution of Confucianism/Mohism etc., which would likely generate its own reaction. It's also likely that former members of the Yellow Turbans would also start developing their own heresies in response to local dissatisfaction over the central government. Coupled with a very likely counter-reaction from the former Han elite and, well, I just don't see a Yellow Turban Dynasty being extremely stable - it would probably still fall victim to the 'barbarian' invasions of the 4th century.
 
Southern Hunnu's allied to Yellow Turban. While Northern steppe had powerful Xianbei state.
Now will this Southern Hunnu invade Steppe and establish 2nd Hunnu EMpire with the help of Yellow Turban Dynasty?
 
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