I was thinking at work the other day of the book, Years of Rice and Salt and how interesting it was. But what if it was somewhat backwards. How would that story have gone? What if instead of Europe being wiped out, what if a large portion (not all) of India and the Middle East was wiped out by the Plague instead?
Years of Rice and Salt, Backwards
- Thread starter The Doctor
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What timeframe are we talking about? Rice and Salt used the Black Death. As I recall, it didn't really spread outside of Europe. Is the scenario that rather than going west and ravaging Europe, the plague spreads east and takes out Arabia, India, and China?
That's a very good point. One of the book's central conceits was the whole group-of-people-getting-reincarnated-together angle. The dominant philosophies in Europe don't have anything like that. Maybe pump the Cathars and Bogomils? I think they had reincarnation? Without reincarnation, what mechanism do you use to keep the main characters the same in each story?
Not sure if it would be such a wankage. While taking these areas would be easier, the absence of local population means that Europeans would have to move there much more people who would have to do everything, from agriculture to mining. Can't use locals to do the dirty work if no locals exist. That would require large surplus population, which I don't think existed.
Then there is the question of New World. Less initiative to go there in the first place (clear land route to China would exist). How would absence of riches found there influence european economy?
One thing I can see is retaking of Levant and the absence of strong enemy would mean it would be held and latinized. Maybe even "God's punishment of those wicked Muslims" conviction?
OK, say the plague wipes out the area around 1350's-60's. With the east clear of natives will this slow down and make the eastern nations of Europe more powerful? Make Russia more powerful or distablize them? When does colonization take off and ships sail west?
Actually, in OTL the Black Death actually spread across virtually all of Eurasia, and depopulated parts of China and the Middle East in a fashion comparable to Europe. The difference in TYORAS is that it basically 'knows geography' (ie, restricted to Europe) and is far more deadly (99% instead of 25-33%).
No, it would be wankage, but of a strange type, the intellectual and cultural type. in this world it would take Europeans longer to get across the world to settle it, but there would be no competing world views, no other cultures to challenge their assumptions. Perhaps a few Muslims in Spain, and Jews across the world, but fairly soon they will be homogenized in thought.
There are lots of thought in Europe and you still have people in Northern Africa, and farther into India and China that do not believe as Europeans do.
I wonder if some of the African civilizations will be able to flourish without Europe interfering there - or are they also smacked by the uber-Plague?
Let's say the plague has attacked in Afghanistan, north untill the bottom of the Caspian Sea, West to central modern day Turkey, and south to Northern Saudi Arabia and the Sinai peninsula.
Assuming there is nobody in Eurasia able to challenge them inthe long run. OP assumes China and partially India are intact and Europeans suddenly find themselves with space to colonize in their front yard.
Energy spend there (including bigger popualtion drain), no contact with New world and it's riches and plants. Though no locals would make european hold on this territory more firm.
Plus depopulating Mideast would favour "old" powers, not powers that benefited from their position along Atlantic
Well that would make sense. In the actual book it was only one of the regions that got obliterated. So Europe, Middle-East, India, Steppe, China. Pick 1.
I colored everything green and left the borders as I'm about to take a final. Hows this? Its the map from 1380 I used from Roberto's OTL thread.
If the Black Death does decimate East Asia as well, there might be attempts by survivors (primarily Chinese, Korean and Japanese) to escape across the Pacific. By the time the Europeans make landfall in the New World, they might find Asian successor states and "halfbreed" tribes, at least from the west coasts onwards.
THere is no reason for them to go across the Pacific. First as far as they know there is nothing there. Second even if they want to go this route there are not enough boats.
What would probably happen is population centers would move north or south into Indonesia. This may bring about the discovery of Australia to the people of Asia in 50 to 100 years as the population of Indonesia blossoms. Overall I think there would be a move into the Asian northeast.
As the pandemic subsides, India moves into the west. Byzantium will move into Anatolia, since they now have breathing space. Mameluk Egypt will move intothe Holyland and into the region of Mekka. Coastal areas will be the first to be recolonized, followed by the rivers into the interior.
Thande
Donor
I think this would actually retard European development, though it depends on which areas are effected. European expansion and exploration was ultimately about trying to trade with the East for resources that did not exist at home. If A) there are no functioning state societies out east to trade with, there's no point in it; if B) it means they can just move in themselves now there's no Ottoman Empire in the way, it removes the need to round Africa or try the Columbian route westward.
I was thinking the same way, Thande, but also the rediscovery of Classical works preserved in the Middle East and elsewhere. With the loss of those societies, Europe also loses a fair bit of Greek and Roman thought.