Yaroslav the Wise is killed in 1018

[lokaloki]

Mieszko's state looks more like a Zapadoslavia...would this union last?

I think about three ways:
1) Mieszhko will be killed soon (winter 1031/32), because nobles are tired of endless war, and then the pagan uprising begun, which destroyed Poland (it's seems, most probably).

Conrad II made the "good" peace with Mieszhko in summer 1032, because the emperor must fight with Odo II, Count of Blois, in Burgundy. Then
2) Mieszhko died in 1034, as in OTL, and pagan uprising begun too;
3) Mieszhko lived longer, because Czechs didn't imprison him (in OTL they, probably, castrated him too), and hardly fought with pagans, nobles and brother Bezprym - but I'm not sure, that this way is plausible.

And, maybe, another way is most plausible, but I can't found it yet.

 

[Mefisto]

Interesting course of events.
For the alternatives:
1. Nobles at that era loved war. It was the opportunity to gain fame and wealth for them. In OTL Mieszko was maligned because he was unsuccessfull in war and his precedessor - warrior king Bolesław - was named great. Another example: you wondered why Rus attacked Constantinople in 1043 in OTL. I came about an explanation that the boyars and druzhina were tired of peace and wanted war, though this was completely pointless from political and economical point of view.
2. If Mieszko died in 1034 uprising was possible though not as catastrophical as in OTL. In OTL the country was in awful state because of an assault from both sides in 1031, the exile of king (and subsequent lack of highest authority), the very bad rule of Bezprym and then the last reason was utter humiliation of Mieszko - his castration and yelding a crown. In this timeline Mieszko managed to defend his country and to regain Moravia. His authority is not diminished and he as a son (who in OTL appeared very capable ruler so in this timeline he would be probably too). I think any pagan reaction wouldn't be as mass and widespread as in OTL, rather series of unorganized mutinies which would be subsequently put down.
3. Very probable that Mieszko would live longer and would have problems with Bezprym (who was the first-born after all). Bezprym was in OTL very good in intrigue - he was a coordinator of strike on Poland in 1031). But he only ally of Bezprym would be Oldřich or Bretislav (whoever now rules Bohemia) and/or Vielets and Pomeranians. He would probably be a nuisance but not a calamity like in OTL.

 

[lokaloki]

Interesting course of events.
For the alternatives

Thanks!
I thought a lot about your arguments - and I agree with you. Nobody kill a successful king, and, probably, he lived longer.

And now I think about campaign of 1031.
Conrad II, it's seems, fought only in autumn or in winter, and with a few forces (Czechs, probably, refused help him), as in OTL.
But Mieszhko, because he didn't fought with Rus', had some ways for attack.
Or, as in 1030, ravaged Brandenburg; or ravaged Magdeburg; or attacked Bohemia. It's seems, last way is most probable - then Mieszhko can propose peace, if Conrad recognized, that Poland has Bohemia (or part of Bohemia, divided by Vlatva), or Conrad continued the war.

 

[lokaloki]

Chapter Four. 1031-1032.

In spring of 1031 Conrad II was busy with the peace with Stephan I. The peace was made, Stephan took some lands. [1]
In winter and spring Mieszhko with Sviatopolk ravaged western parts of Marches Lusatia and Meissen, and took Meissen [2]. Dietrich II von Wettin attacked them, but was defeated and killed in the battle [3].
Oldřich and Břetislav stayed in Bohemia, were ready to fight with Poland.
In autumn Conrad II gathered army in Merseburg, asked for warriors from Chechs. Oldřich refused [4] - he remembered last year, lost battle with Hungarians and lost of Moravia. Conrad II seized Meissen, but can't take it.

The son of Stephan I was killed during hunting in 1031 [7].

In winter of 1031/32 people revolted in Poland. Mieszhko defeated uprisings, but campaign of summer 1032 was unsuccessfully - Mieszhko with small army ravaged Merseburg, but he was defeated by Herman I.
In autumn Conrad II attacked Mieszhko with new forces, but Rudolph II, the king of Burgundy, died in September. Odo, Count of Blois, claimed his rights to kingdom.
Conrad II made peace with Mieszhko:
1) Mieszko stops supporting Ezzonids;
2) Mieszko support of troops in war with Blois;
3) Poland received western parts of Marches Lusatia and Meissen [5];
4) 2 new bishops are set for Rus' - Polotsk and Novgorod (Sviatoplok was afraid, that lost all his bishops, if Ederam died during the war), which are under head of Gnesno archbishop;
5) Otto became bishop of Krakow [6].

In 1032 Russians and Alans attacked Shirvan. They ravaged, sacked, killed for ten days. They killed more then 10.000 men and captured many men and women. When they returned home, emir Mansur with his men occupied roads and passes in mountains and attacked them. Near "Mood Gates" "It was slaughter, like never before". Muslims took away all loot of Russians and Alans and killed many of them. Only few Russians and Alans escaped, and ruler of Alania too. [8]
Many historians think, that Eustaphius, the son of Mstislav, Prince of Chernigov, was killed near "Mood Gates". In Chronicles year of his death is 1032 or 1033.

Mstislav was hard depressed [9], but Ioann I, the metropolitan of Rus', presuaded him to marry again and sent messengers to Byzantium for "a good wife".



[1] Like OTL.
[2] In OTL he can take Meissen in 1015, but the flood of Elba prevent him. In OTL in this year Rus' attacked Poland and Mieszhko can't fought with German. In ATL he had forces and continued the war.
[3] In OTL he fought with Mieszhko in 1030, by chronicle he won, but I'm not sure, that he did - it's seems, more like, that Mieszhko went away himself. Then, in 1034 he was killed by brother of his wife.
[4] Like OTL.
[5] In OTL Conrad leaved campaign against Poland, when he knew, that Rudolph died. Poland was defeated by Rus', it was weak and Bezprym soon became the duke of Poland. In ATL Conrad II had strong Poland, and must (like Henry II in 1012) made the peace on conditions of Mieszhko.
[6] There is version, that the bishop of Krakow Lambert I (1019-1030) was the son of Mieszhko I; and the bishop of Krakow in 1061-1071 was Lambert II Suła from dynasty of Piast. So, it's seems, that was tradition set a brother of a king as bishops of Krakow, but this tradition didn't became strong.
[7] Like OTL.
[8] By "history of Shirvan".
[9] In OTL he died of ill in 1036. In ATL he is only Prince of Orthodox Christianity, so, probably, church will try save the dynasty.

 

[Mefisto]

Good. I looks like now your main focus is Poland. I think that Konrad would accept peace with Poland on condition that Mieszko stops supporting Ezzonids - the family who contested first Henry II and then Konrad for title of Roman King. He would also demand something from Poland in exchange for additional lands in Lusatia lost to Poland to save his face. For example support of troops in wars with other kingdoms. And Mieszko has enough domestic problems to be willing to end the fight. People are already restless because of need to support large army, pagan reaction still rears it's ugly head and Poland lacks priests who usually were coming from Germany or Italy until the domestic cadres were available. Sviatopolk has similar problems and he just have broken with Eastern Roman Empire so he has nowhere to look for new priests.

 

[lokaloki]

Good.

Thanks!

I looks like now your main focus is Poland.

Nothing happened in this time in Rus' (almost nothing). So, Poland is more interesting country.

Poland lacks priests who usually were coming from Germany or Italy until the domestic cadres were available. Sviatopolk has similar problems and he just have broken with Eastern Roman Empire so he has nowhere to look for new priests.

Thanks!
I didn't think about this.

 

[Mefisto]

Crap, just edited my message because I noticed that Konrad already was emperor (at least in OTL). Yes, I think Mieszko would gladly lease some troops to Emperor against Odo (together with Bezprym and/or his brother Otto probably hoping they would never return). And I think that some kind of truce or even alliance between Mieszko and Konrad would be inevitable: they have Vielets and Pomeranians at the borders and christian kings at that time would be obliged to conquer and christianize pagans.

And I'm curious if Rus' is really that peaceful at this time. If Sviatopolk is fighting abroad, some other persons would try to broaden their influence. What about Briachislav of Polotsk? What about Pechenegs?

 

[lokaloki]

Yes, I think Mieszko would gladly lease some troops to Emperor against Odo (together with Bezprym and/or his brother Otto probably hoping they would never return).

Bezprym is in Hungary in this time, Otto is in Germany. Otto can headed these troops and died in 1033, as in OTL, if Mieszhko agreed. But if Otto will alive, he will have an army. Maybe, Mieszhko sent his son, Kasimir - he was 15/16 in 1032.

And I think that some kind of truce or even alliance between Mieszko and Konrad would be inevitable: they have Vielets and Pomeranians at the borders and christian kings at that time would be obliged to conquer and christianize pagans.

Yes, I agree. But war against pagans, probably, should begin after ending of the war with Odo.

And I'm curious if Rus' is really that peaceful at this time. If Sviatopolk is fighting abroad, some other persons would try to broaden their influence. What about Briachislav of Polotsk? What about Pechenegs?

I thought, that situation in general is liked OTL: Sviatopolk fought abroad, as Yaroslav did in OTL. No wars are written in Primary Chronicle, as far as I know. Pechenegs seized Kiev in 1036 - but, I think, reason was the death of Mstislav: if Pechenegs had peace with him, then after his death Pechenegs went to Kiev for a new peace of for a war - like cumans in XII century.
Briachislav, probably, fought with Lithuanians (or colonized their lands), but only archeological evidences are present.

 

[Mefisto]

Otto in country is a problem. He would demand a province for him and Mieszko, like his father, didn't want to divide his demesne. But on the other hand if Konrad wanted to stir troubles in Poland he would give some troops to Otto and incite a civil war. So Mieszko probably would give a province to govern - maybe Masovia - to his brother when he returns from Burgundy.

Kasimir for sure would like to be sent into the war. He would want some fame and recognition in druzhina. Besides he would broaden his education on Emperor's court.

I'm curious what would be economical situation in Poland in mid-thirties. I'm afraid that there would be large crisis. Early medieval Poland lacked precious metals and the only sources of gold and silver were slaves and some products like salt and wax. But when christianity began to spread the slave trade rapidly diminished. Bolesław made some money from pillaging Kiev and eastern marches of Empire. Mieszko pillaged Saxony. In this timeline he was successfull in fight but his army is very expensive. At the same time Emperor makes money from Goslar mines and Rusians has Dnieper route so they can trade with Byzantines - they can sell wax, furs and timber. So both Polish neighbours have resources to finance strong army and the strength of Poland is diminishing unless Mieszko finds some way. Maybe amber trade?

 

[lokaloki]

So Mieszko probably would give a province to govern - maybe Masovia - to his brother when he returns from Burgundy.

Then Bezprym wants a province for himself too. And current ruler of the province, probably, will be infuriates and, maybe, revolts.
Edited conditions of the peace - one of points is "Otto became the bishop of Krakow".

I'm curious what would be economical situation in Poland in mid-thirties... So both Polish neighbours have resources to finance strong army and the strength of Poland is diminishing unless Mieszko finds some way. Maybe amber trade?

I don't sure with amber - lands of amber are not Polish, and it's seems, amber was not much in demand.
Maybe, transit trade? Buy furs from Rus', work up them and sell to West? Or he must continues wars, until people revolts?

Thanks!

 

[lokaloki]

Because Rudolph died in September of 1032 (not in winter 1031/32), Chapter 4 is edited, added events of 1032.

 

[Mefisto]

I like your solution. Otto is made a bishop (at that time equivalent of prince, so his pride is intact) and Mieszko manages to retain his state in one piece. He has only one son who is his heir so a tradition of not dividing a kingdom would be established over previous custom. Bezprym is out of picture, he would probably end as a monk somewhere.

Mieszko needs to consolidate his rule over newly acquired lands and acquire more priests. So for now there is peace but 2-3 years later he would probably try to regain Pomerania. Firstly because it it a wealthy province and secondly because he needs to do something with his troops. They cannot be idle for too long.

About amber: the deposits are quite widespread and it can be found all over nowadays Polish coast.
http://www.signature-gems.com/Amber_and_Baltic_Amber.html
But I admit I don't know how profitable would be early medieval amber trade.
A transit of furs is IMO bad idea. At that time trade routes would be along the rivers and along the sea coast. Novgorod is large enough to process furs and sell them in large quantities. It has access to hunting grounds, to Baltic sea routes and to main Dnieper route. Besides Gdańsk, the only Polish port now, is small yet and large Pomeranian cities are independent.

The Polish chance is the earlier discovery and exploitation of Lesser Poland's and Silesian minerals - if Polish rule there is more stable.

 

[lokaloki]

I like your solution.

Thanks!

Bezprym is out of picture, he would probably end as a monk somewhere.

I'm not sure. If Poland became more weak, maybe, Stephan try set Bezprym as Duke of Poland and take Slovakia?

secondly because he needs to do something with his troops.

It's seems, he had not peace years. In 1033/34 Luzitichi begun rebel, probably, it start the pagan uprising, and after both revolts, war with Hungary and Bezprym may begun.

But I admit I don't know how profitable would be early medieval amber trade.

Thaks!
I will try find more material.

A transit of furs is IMO bad idea. At that time trade routes would be along the rivers and along the sea coast.

But, it's seems, Krakow and Prague were a big trade cities? Or they were not enough big?

The Polish chance is the earlier discovery and exploitation of Lesser Poland's and Silesian minerals - if Polish rule there is more stable.

I will think about this way. Thanks!

 

[Mefisto]

I'm not sure. If Poland became more weak, maybe, Stephan try set Bezprym as Duke of Poland and take Slovakia?

I don't think he would have enough strength to subjugate whole Poland which is now realtively strong. Besides Stephen has his own problems, similar to these of Mieszko (he is also a christian ruler in mainly pagan country). He can try to annex Slovakia and maybe establish Bezprym there.

It's seems, he had not peace years. In 1033/34 Luzitichi begun rebel,

Do you mean people of Lusatia? What would be a reason for rebellion? I would suppose that Mieszko would treat them better than Saxon knights and magnates? Unless the very knights would rebel against Slavic rule. They vere quite shauvinistic (vide Thietmar).

probably, it start the pagan uprising, and after both revolts, war with Hungary and Bezprym may begun.

Yes, pagan reaction is still unresolved problem. And Stephen may be opportunistic.

But, it's seems, Krakow and Prague were a big trade cities? Or they were not enough big?

Prague was large city in X century, as a main hub of slave trade. I think thet decline of this trade was the reason of weakness of Premyslids in first half of XI century.
Krakow was quite big city for this time as it had the salt deposits nearby and some metal deposits (lead and silver) which would be sources of it's wealth. In the beginning Krakow province was a province for the king's heir to govern. But it's importance has risen after Bretislav's invasion in 1038 which pillaged and depopulated Greater Poland. It is supposed that this invasion also was a cause of development of Masovia - the people fled before Czech invaders and colonized border marche.

As I can remember in OTL Silesian paladins were really powerful and wealthy in the end of XI and beginning of XII century. The name "Skarbimir" is symptomatic - "skarb" means "a treasure". I suppose that uninterrupted Polish rule in Silesia and control over Moravia would lead to earlier development of the province (silver, gold and lead mining, transit between Greater Poland and Austria) and more revenue to king's treasure in this timeline - but it would be rather in Kasimir's age, not Mieszko's.
Mieszko still has an economic depression to fight.

 

[kasumigenx]

You forgot to mention about Boleslaw the Forgotten or Boleslaw the Cruel..



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bolesław_the_Forgotten

 

[Mefisto]

No, I regard him as urban legend.

 

[lokaloki]

Chapter Five. 1033-1034.

Germany, Burgundy:
As soon as Rodolph III died, Odo II, the Count of Blois and Champagne, crossed the Burgundian frontier, captured some cities, and in Vienne he was crowned as the King of Burgundy.
Conrad can went to Strasbourg only on Christmas 1032. He marched on Basel (January 1033) and proceeded to Payene, where he was elected as the King of Burgundy (2 February 1033). The emperor tried to take Morat, but the weather was too cold, and Conrad returned to Swabia.

(Morat)

Europe:
Spring weather was unusually harsh and panic spreads throughout Europe that the end of the universe may be near. The Book of Revelation predicts the end of the earth after a 1000 year period - and in 1033 was 1000 years after the crucifixion of Christ.

Germany, France, Burgundy:
In the spring (May 1033) Conrad met the French King Henry I, an alliance against Odo was formed between them. The daughter of Conrad, Mathilda, was engaged with Henry I. She died in next year, so, she was never wife of Henry.
Henry I attacked Odo, and only some months later hostilities were resumed between Conrad and Odo. Odo invaded Lorraine and threatened Toul. Conrad invaded Champagne. Enemies decided on opening negotiations. A meeting took place, but ended nothing [1].

Germany, Poland, Bohemia:
The son of Conrad II, Henry, with Polish troops, which the son of Mieszhko II, Casimir, was led, in summer of 1033 attacked Oldřich, the duke of Bohemia and defeated him [2]. At a court held at Werben Oldřich was condemned, banished, and deprived of his lands. His brother, the old Duke Jaromir was set again over the duchy of Bohemia. Probably, Jaromir divided the country with the son of Oldřich, Břetislav. The capital of lands of Břetislav, probably, was Hradec Králové. [3]


Germany, Wends:
In autumn 1033 Conrad had withdrawn in order to suppress a revolt of the Lyutitzi on the borders of Pomerania.
"A feud had broken out between the Saxons and the Wendish tribe, the Lyutitzi, which gave rise to mutual incursions and plundering. At the request of both parties, the Emperor permitted the issue to be determined by the judgment of God in the form of duel. The Christian champion fell wounded to the sword of the pagan; the decision was accepted by the Emperor, and the Wends, so elated by their success would have forthwith attacked their Saxon opponents, had not they been constrained by oath to keep the peace and been menaced by establishment at Werben of a fortress strongly garrisoned by a body of Saxon knights."[4]
When Conrad went away, Odo renews his expeditions through Lorraine.



Poland:
After the Christian champion was defeated, pagan begun prepare rebel in Poland and in the spring 1034 the revolt begun. [5] Probably, some independent pagans from northern Poland helped them. "The Great Uprising was in Poland. Men killed priests, bishops, nobles..." is written in Primary Chronicle. Mieszhko and Casimir hardly fought with pagans.

Byzantium:
In Byzantium, on April 11, 1034, Zoe’s husband, Romanos III was found dead in his bath. April 11 1034 – Empress Zoe of Byzantium marries her chamberlain and elevates him to the throne of the Eastern Roman Empire as Michael IV.

(Murder of emperor Romanos III Argyros under the order of Michael IV the Paphlagonian, from the Constantine Manasses Chronicle)
Rus':
As result, a new wife for Mstislav, Prince of Chernigov, can't came in this year.

Bohemia:
Oldřich was pardoned at Ratisbon (April 1034). He seized and blinded his brother and exiled his son. Břetislav escaped to Poland - where he was captured and imprisoned [6].

Germany, Italy, Burgundy:
In May 1034 Burgundy was attacked on two sides. Conrads Italian allies led their troops across the Great St Bernard and following the Rhone Valley, made their junction with the Emperor, operating from the north, at Geneva. At Geneva Conrad was again recognized as king and received the submission of the greater number of Odo's adherents. [7]

Bohemia:
Oldřich died the same year. Jaromir undertook the title and duties.[8]

Rus':
Yaropolk, the son of Sviatoplok, became the Prince of Novgorod. [9]



[1] - like OTL. By some Chronicles, Odo promised went away from Burgundy and Lorraine, but, more probably, Odo promised nothing.
[2] - in OTL Henry acted himself, without Casimir. In TTL Poland promised help to Germany, and, because Henry had rather small army (as in OTL), Conrad asked help for the son. Mieszhko sent army with his son.
[3] - in OTL Břetislav, probably, had Moravia, but in TTL Moravia is Polish.
[4] - like OTL, by Cambridge Medieval History (1922).
[5] - historians said different years as begun of pagan Uprising, but 1034 is popular date. Connection between duel and uprising is not mentioned nowhere, but, it's seems, it's rather logic.
[6] - in OTL Břetislav, probably, escaped to Hungary, from Moravia. In TTL he can escaped from Hradec only to Poland, from other sides his father can capture him. When Mieszhko escaped to Bohemia in OTL in 1032, he was imprisoned. So, probably, Břetislav was imprisoned in Poland too - because he fought with Mieszhko and took Moravia for some time.
[7] - like OTL
[8] - like OTL, and in OTL Jaromir was killed in this year, but in TTL Břetislav is imprisoned, so, Jaromir can live some longer.
[9] - in OTL Vladimir, the son of Yaroslav, did.

 

[lokaloki]

You forgot to mention about Boleslaw the Forgotten or Boleslaw the Cruel.

Thanks!
As far as I know, many historians think, that Boleslaw Forgotten was not exist. He didn't mentioned in contemporary sources, only in rather late. Gall Anonim (in "Gesta principum Polonorum", is written in 1112-1118) didn't mentioned him, moreover, he wrote, that after Mieszhko next was Casimir; and Wipo of Burgundy (died in 1048) in his "Gesta Chuonradi II imperatoris" wrote, that "after death of Mieszko his son, Casimir, served emperors".
In http://www.poczet.com/zapomniany.htm
All mentions of Boleslaw are analyzed and refused. (text in Poland, sorry).

 

[lokaloki]

Maps are added for every chapter (for last chapter 2 maps, 1033 and 1034, are added).
Chapter five is edited - attack of Stephan is moved to 1035 (probably), after the unsuccessfully war with Vendish Slavs.

 

[lokaloki]

Chapter six. 1035.

In March 1035 Lyutitzi captured Werben.
In May Conrad II gathered an army in Bamberg. Henry, the son of Conrad II, is betrothed to Gunhilda, the daughter of Cnut the Great. Otto of Schweinfurt, future Duke of Swabia, was engaged to marry Matilda, the sister of Mieszhko II. [1]
In summer Conrad with polish troops, which Casimir led, attacked Lyutitzi. They burnt many villages and towns, but can't defeat pagans. [2]

In summer, Stephan I of Hungary, attacked Poland. He take Slovakia, and captured Krakow, where Bezprym became the Duke of Poland. Mieszhko met him, but he can't gather a large army - rebels continued, part of warriors fought Lyutitzi. So, Polish was defeated and Mieszhko was killed in the battle. [3]

(Casimir I)
Casimir was crowned the King of Poland in Gnezno. He can't fought with Hungary, because rebells continued, and the war with Lyutitzi continued, and he remembered, what happened with Dukes, who refuse help the Emperor. Casimir made a peace with Stephan - he recognized, that Slovakia became a part of Hungary, he recognized Bezprym as Duke of Lesser Poland and Chervien cities, but he refused to release Bretislav - Casimir was afraid, that Bretislav would try to take Moravia again.

Ioann I, the metropolitan of Russia, died. A new metropolitan, Teopempt, conveyed a wife for Mstislav, a long relative of the Emperor. The young girl can add some years to life of the Prince of Chernigov.

(Magnus offers his axe to Åsmund Grankjellsson. Illustration by Halfdan Egedius)
In spring Magnus the Good, the son of Olaf of Norway, came to Sweden from Ladoga. Ingegerd dave him warriors, and the king of Sweden did. Magnus invaded Norway and he didn't meet any opposition.
Svein, the son of Cnut the Great, the ruler of Norway, fled to Denmark, where died soon. Cnut the Creat, who can attack Norway, died in November 1035. [4]

Spain (it's for the map):
Sancho III of Navarre died. The realm is divided between his sons:
García - the kingdom Navarre, including the Basque country.
Ferdinand - Castile.
Gonzalo - the counties of Sobrarbe and Ribagorza.
Ramiro - county of Aragón



[1] - in OTL Otto break the betrothal in next year, "by claims of bishops". But, it's seems, they were not a close relative. So, reason was the weakness of Poland, probably. In TTL Poland is strong and an ally of the Empire, so, Otto married Matilda.
[2] - like OTL, only in OTL Mieszhko didn't take part in the war
[3] - in OTL Mieszhko died in 1034
[4] - as in OTL