WWII-WI: Allies at the Alps, A Rapid Italian Campaign

First, forgive me for running another WWII thread.

That said, I've noticed a lot of good criticism here regarding alternative Mediterranean theater options for the Allies as things stood upon American entry into the war, even if the necessity for the Italian campaign is acknowledged.

Southern France being too tough a nut to crack, and the Balkans being a slow slog to nowhere fast, Italy seems the most logical target in hopes of quickly knocking out a major Axis power and establishing a presence on the Continent. But aside from Sicily, Italy was a slow, grinding struggle from one line of defense to another.

What would it take for the Allies instead to be at least at the Po river by the time the Normandy landings were ready? And what could they do from there? Fighting through the Italian and Austrian alps would be pretty brutal, and German resistance there likely would be both fanatical and effective, given the terrain. Might there be greater Allied activity in Yugoslavia from there?

As for the how, I suppose one might replace Kesselring with someone incompetent for a start, and have Husky include landings in Italy proper to prevent effective Axis evacuation of Sicily.

What would be the effects of such a campaign in Italy itself? Does Mussolini get hung from a lamp post early, or flee to Germany to be tried at the end of the war? Presumably, a more expedient Allied advance prevents or limits the Axis benefit of establishing the Italian Social Republic in the north, in addition to denying the use of Italian industry.

Would a more impressive Allied campaign in Italy have any effect on Allied plans for Overlord and Dragoon, by drawing away German resources to the Alps, or by increasing the demands on Allied material?

Most importantly, is this sort of success a reasonable possibility, or are German advantages too significant to be that easily overcome south of the Po?
 

Markus

Banned
What would it take for the Allies instead to be at least at the Po river by the time the Normandy landings were ready?

Organize the Italian defection in a better way. Ike announcing it later and Commando Supremo ordering the Italian military to resist the Germans. IOTL they just fled, telling no one what to do. Classis case of the chain of command being de capitated. And a tragic one, their forces around Rome were several times stronger than the German´s, who still needed days to relief their garrison in Rome.

Another way is 8th and 5th Army fighting together, not paralell or against each other. Patton and Monty on Sicily did not cooperate allowing the Germans to withdraw, neither did Leese and Clark(who let 10th army escape).


And what could they do from there? Fighting through the Italian and Austrian alps would be pretty brutal, and German resistance there likely would be both fanatical and effective, given the terrain. Might there be greater Allied activity in Yugoslavia from there?
Go east into Croatia or west into southern France.



Would a more impressive Allied campaign in Italy have any effect on Allied plans for Overlord and Dragoon, by drawing away German resources to the Alps, or by increasing the demands on Allied material?
Check the map. The German frontline would get several times longer. So it get thinner unlesss the Germans send more troops.
 

Hyperion

Banned
Best thing I could think of, get Patton and Monty to coordinate Husky better for a start, with the intent of capturing or destroying the German divisions in Sicily. If enough forces can be brought into play in time, land a division, two if at all possible, on the toe of the Italian peninsula before the Germans pull out.

I'm not sure of the exact order of battle, but from what I recall in the first month or so of the campaign in Italy proper, at least a couple of the German divisions the allies had to fight where the ones that escaped from Sicily. Cut these divisions off and destroy them or force their surrender, and you could speed up the campaign in Italy by several weeks.
 
Organize the Italian defection in a better way. Ike announcing it later and Commando Supremo ordering the Italian military to resist the Germans. IOTL they just fled, telling no one what to do. Classis case of the chain of command being de capitated. And a tragic one, their forces around Rome were several times stronger than the German´s, who still needed days to relief their garrison in Rome.

I believe there was a thread on this relatively recently, and there seemed to be a prevalent belief that the Germans and Italians were too well integrated in most places to resist effectively. Though I think that mostly regarded Greece.

No doubt even a disorganized resistance by existing Italian forces would have very badly disrupted any German attempts to grab Rome before the Allies could reinforce it, but would the Italian army be willing to follow such an order? Or even if it was, would it be able to act in a sufficiently coordinated manner to establish a defense of the approaches to Rome?


The German frontline would get several times longer. So it get thinner unlesss the Germans send more troops.

That much is obvious, though the terrain of the Alps at least would strongly favor the German defenders. If the Allies are at the alpine border of France and Italy by the time of the Normandy landings, I suppose any attempt by the Germans to hold southern France would be pretty futile, and rather wasteful even before the landings there.

Best thing I could think of, get Patton and Monty to coordinate Husky better for a start, with the intent of capturing or destroying the German divisions in Sicily. If enough forces can be brought into play in time, land a division, two if at all possible, on the toe of the Italian peninsula before the Germans pull out.

I'm not sure of the exact order of battle, but from what I recall in the first month or so of the campaign in Italy proper, at least a couple of the German divisions the allies had to fight where the ones that escaped from Sicily. Cut these divisions off and destroy them or force their surrender, and you could speed up the campaign in Italy by several weeks.

Alright then how does this run:

Operation Husky includes landings in Calabria, supported by air and naval raids, preventing any organized German units from evacuating Sicily. In spite of the victory there, poor Anglo-American coordination is noted as a problem.

Mussolini is ejected by the Council and the King, and the Allies are approached with discrete requests for terms before any announcements are made. Managing to avoid disclosing such secrets to the Germans, Italian units in Rome especially are ordered to prepare for action, ostensibly against the Allied landings. Hence, they are not caught entirely flat-footed by the announcement of surrender and orders to resist the German forces in Italy. Unfortunately, Italian units in the Balkans and Aegean are with a few exceptions unable to avoid being disarmed by their German counterparts, but the sudden disorganization of the occupying forces does wonders for local resistance movements, as well as giving Sofia pause.

In Italy proper, the presence of advancing Allied soldiers on the mainland did wonders to focus the mind of military officers and others in leadership positions, though not quite enough to avoid violent rejection of the armistice orders by committed Fascists and elements of the Italian military. Fortunately, such chaotic resistance was unorganized and not significant enough to prevent the Italian army from engaging German forces that were moving to occupy the north of the country. The German advance slows to a crawl in the Apennines, giving the Allies some time to move in through Italian ports, securing Rome, Naples, Taranto and Bari, while Anglo-American aircraft savage German units and their logistics.

German forces have penetrated to the Arno before American units and the resisting Italian army engage in the Battle of Florence. Repulsed from attempts to take the city, the Wehrmacht shifts objectives to hold the allies at the hastily-planned Gothic Line across the Apennine peaks. This defense slows the Allied advance through the fall of 1943, until the British-led landings at Rimini force a winter retreat to the Po. By Hitler's orders, a scorched-earth strategy leaves such cities as Bologna and Ravenna devastated. Such brutality rapidly turns all Italians but a few fascist fanatics against their former German ally and the increasingly irrelevant puppet state of the Italian Social Republic.

Mussolini himself, attempting to salvage fascist "dignity" in Milan, faces several creative assassination attempts by partisans before deciding to slip out of the city to a more secure, German-guarded location. Luck was not with Il Duce, as the Italian resistance derails his train by sabotaging a bridge. Believed to have died either in the crash or by drowning, his body is never found.

The spring of 1944 sees renewed Allied advances along the course of the Po, with the river itself eventually crossed in mid April. By late May, the shattered remains of Milan and Padua are liberated.

Drawn in by the allied advance and fed false intelligence through operations in Spain and through the Double Cross system, the Germans have spent a great deal of effort in constructing and preparing heavily fortified lines of defense in the Alps and southern France. While not comparable to the Atlantic Wall in terms of absolute scale, the resources diverted southwards strain an already overburdened war economy, and slow the progress of Atlantic Wall fortifications. This weakening of Channel defenses was critical in allowing the Allies to successfully advance off the beach and into their initial objectives, particularly Caen. The succeeding invasion of the south of France, Dragoon, soon isolated German garrisons east of the Rhone against Allied positions in Italy. Cut off from supply, the vaunted Alpine Wall eventually surrenders rather than face starvation...
 

Markus

Banned
No doubt even a disorganized resistance by existing Italian forces would have very badly disrupted any German attempts to grab Rome before the Allies could reinforce it, but would the Italian army be willing to follow such an order? Or even if it was, would it be able to act in a sufficiently coordinated manner to establish a defense of the approaches to Rome?

The army was nominally under command of the King, it´s top leadership had defected Benny, one or two divisions in the Balkans actually fought the Germans and while the Germans had one Airboren and one (incomplete) armoured infrantry division, the Italians had at least four divisions. Regular ones, meaninf the paratroopers were outgunned by more than a factor of four.


That much is obvious, though the terrain of the Alps at least would strongly favor the German defenders. If the Allies are at the alpine border of France and Italy by the time of the Normandy landings, I suppose any attempt by the Germans to hold southern France would be pretty futile, and rather wasteful even before the landings there.

Right, the Alps would be the last place the Allies attack unless they are almost bare of defenders.
 
I agree with the basic ideas of not letting Germans escape from Sicily, and coordinating the defection better. The first is definitely within Allied control, but the second is iffy as it requires the Allies to trust the Italian government with a lot more details about the Allied plan.

I think something else to consider is replacing Mark Clark as the American commander. The man was great at making the right people like him so he got appointed to high command, but he made too many mistakes. Salerno was way too much of a close call; Anzio was mishandled; and he botched nabbing the German Army by heading to Rome instead. Maybe if Patton didn't slap that soldier he could be given command of the 5th Army instead? If not Patton, who else might be inline to command that would do better?

If the Allies are able to land forces and quickly move inland, they should be able to at least reach Rome before significant German reinforcements arrive. The Po River would be achievable by June 1944.

Allied control of most of Italy would have several repercussions.

1) There would be a direct threat that the armies in Italy could break out into either southern France or Yugoslavia. Combined with a naval landing like Dragoon either in France or the Balkans, you give the Germans a lot more headaches.

2) A quick advance in Italy might allow Churchil to argue for a landing in the Balkans, especially in regards to an alternative to Dragoon.

3) Closer allied airbases in Italy would extend the range of bombers. I think they'd be close enough to drop supplies in Warsaw during the 1944 Rising without the need to ask for Soviet landing, or even support the Poles by bomber strikes. Might be enough to convince Hitler to abandon the city.

Overall, there is a lot of potential of dramatically extending Western Allied front into Eastern Europe. Vienna probably falls to the Western Allies, not the Soviets. Possibility that parts of Hungary, Yugoslavia, or even Bulgaria (if a Balkan landing is made) are not Soviet occupied. Might save at least one of them from Communism.
 
My TL with OKH_1946 addresses this

namely in conjunction with the husky landings, a reinforced division lands at calabria to cut off all German formations on the island... then when landing in Italy it is done at Citiavecchia north of rome, cutting off all forces in the south, and bypassing most of the shit terrain before the alps themselves

Mark Clark is was a giant overly conservative egodistical douchebag
 
I'd have a smaller Husky, with just Monty - whose objective is the western area of the island - in order to get secure sites for airfields. Initially the Germans & Italians, think they can defeat the British.

But then Patton throws a 'spanner' into the assumptions by landing at Tarranto. The landings, are supported by paratroop landings just outside, which secure important road junctions. The port is quickly taken, and while engineers assist with clearing debris, Patton's forces link up with the 82nd and drive west to block the west coast road to Sicilly. This is supported by artillery set up in the hills dominating the area. The Luftwaffe attempts to intervene, but suffer heavy losses from fighters based in Sicilly, and from supporting carrier aircraft. Reinforcements meant the Americans were able to construct the own supporting airfields, and begin advancing - but up the east coast not the west coast.
Try, as they might the 'block' held despite heavy casualities on both sides, but for Axis forces in the 'toe' and in Sicilly there was nowhere to go. Some go anyway by, sea, some by air - but most of those who tried didn't see land again.
Meanwhile, the Germans were again thrown into confusion, when Sardinia was assaulted by the French - what were the Allies up to!?
With the success so far achieved, much discussion took place between the Allies. It was agreed that what next would be reviewed after the Foggia airfields were secured - free from any enemy artillery. By this time to Corsica had also been taken.
The Axis at this point didn't know what would happen next - Southern France, North Western Italy, or landings in the Adriatic. All they could do was keep the heads down while the bombers took off ......
 
1) There would be a direct threat that the armies in Italy could break out into either southern France or Yugoslavia.
Only in Winston's fevered dreams.:eek::eek::rolleyes: In reality, there was no damn chance.

Want a fast Italian campaign? Don't invade the damn country.:rolleyes: Landing to prevent escape from Messina is plenty. Let the Germans deal with feeding & pacifying the Italians...:eek:
 
Without having pulled up a topo map and looked for landing sites, what about a landing in northern Italy, with a fixed line to the north and the main offensive pushing south? The logic being to cut off German reinforcements and any Italian overland imports early and effectively isolate Italy immediately. I suppose a lot depends on how easy it would be to defend the top of Italy really, since it would essentially be an instant two front campaign. The other risk of course being that anything less than total dominance of the Med would negate the effects of cutting Italy's overland connections...
 
I was under the impression one of the larger reasons for the Italian campaign was to pacify Stalin by showing him that hey we are trying to open a second front.
 
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