WWII Weapons Challenge: A British Assault Rifle

Considering the US troops had the M1 Garand rifle, & the Germans had introduced the Sturmgewehr 44, why couldn’t the British produce a semi-auto/assault rifle equivalent to replace the old Lee-Enfield 303?

So this is the challenge! By the end of WII, have such a semi-auto/assault type rifle common among British &/or Commonwealth forces.

Discuss.
 
well for one the lee rifle was a good rifle and why change in the midle of a war ,


Very true, I even owned one once long ago. But when everyone else can shot around 30 bullets at you, in a rapid fashion, & you've only got somewhere between 5 to 10 bullets (depending on model) to shot back in a relative slow fashion, it's time to join the club ;)
 
In 1942 the British tested, and eventually brought into small production the Loen (London the city of design, and and Enfield, the location of the British Royal Small Arms Factory). Made by Major Reginald Shepherd who worked upon the Sten gun, and Col. Robert Howard a British officer who was injured in Tobruk as Operation Brevity went on.

Howard, who was injured fighting in Tobruk on May 15, 1941 and resting in London awaiting reassignment, wrote a detailed report of his units actions in the operation. One point he stressed, was the need for automatic fire, but also the need for long range ability. As he noted men with Enfield rifles where somewhat at a disadvantage in the narrow defense's of Tobruk, and also that the Sten gun had its one disadvantages due to the small caliber round, and range.

Major Reginald Shepherd, who put the S in sten, was interested in Howard's reports, and the two began talking. The two soon came upon the idea of an assualt rifle, and began working on designs. A prototype was created with a .303, selective fire weapon, that borrowed the Garand M1 double locking lugs, and unlocking raceway, that was created entirely out of stamped sheet metal. By September 1942 1,000 Mk. I Loen (or Lion as it quickly became know due to the loud roar the gun made a full auto), was issued to men in North Africa.

While the weapon was quickly asked for by many after the 2nd battle for El Alimin, Shepherd and Howard, a machinist before the war, worked to handle the overheating, and jamming problem the gun had.The Mk. II was sent out in January 1943, with a change to the reciever, and feed mechanism. The most recognized is the Mk. III which had a wooden handguard, and a detachable metal stock which some 2,000 where dropped before D-day to the French Resistance.

While never created in large numbers until 1944 when it became the standardized infantry rifle, the Loen did get a reputation as effective, and sturdy in the field. Following the war access to more material, and designers created a weapon that was considered the most modern, until the AK-47 became well know to the world.
 
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Well Fenwick I've got to admit that I never knew that such a British weapon existed, let alone it actually got into production, nor had it got sent to some combat units. :eek:

Still, how can it become the main rifle for British & Commonwealth combat units? And do you have any links by any chance?
 
Well Fenwick I've got to admit that I never knew that such a British weapon existed, let alone it actually got into production, nor had it got sent to some combat units. :eek:

Still, how can it become the main rifle for British & Commonwealth combat units? And do you have any links by any chance?

Dude I just made that up. :D
 
If the Germans had started using fully automatic rifles, or even semiautomatic rifles, early in the war instead of in the last year, there would have been a lot more pressure for the British to come up with an equivalent or at least improved weapon for their soldiers.
 
I see no reason why the British would not be able to make a automatic, or semi-automatic rifle if they so wished. But the UK was not really ready for what happened in WWII, and I think they had to focus more on making weapons that worked, and unlike the Soviets the amount of, and difficulty of street fighting was not as engrained upon the British war experince.

They did not even switch to a real automatic rifle until 1957 with the L1A1.
 
I see no reason why the British would not be able to make a automatic, or semi-automatic rifle if they so wished. But the UK was not really ready for what happened in WWII, and I think they had to focus more on making weapons that worked, and unlike the Soviets the amount of, and difficulty of street fighting was not as engrained upon the British war experince.

They did not even switch to a real automatic rifle until 1957 with the L1A1.


Oddly enough, though, it's not like they didn't have the ability to do so, nor the basic technology around. There was the Bren, not to mention the Stern, to name just two. So a semi-auto, not to mention an outright assault rifle, isn't beyond British designers at the time...
 
Oddly enough, though, it's not like they didn't have the ability to do so, nor the basic technology around. There was the Bren, not to mention the Stern, to name just two. So a semi-auto, not to mention an outright assault rifle, isn't beyond British designers at the time...

I think its more the need for an experince to have an assault rifle come about. For while the British did do street fighting, it was mobile. Its not like the Soviets in Stalingrad who both needed submachine guns in one block, and a rifle in the next. I would almost dare say that without the Soviet AK-47 taking hold most nations would not have assault rifles, just semi-auto ones.
 
I think its more the need for an experince to have an assault rifle come about. For while the British did do street fighting, it was mobile. Its not like the Soviets in Stalingrad who both needed submachine guns in one block, and a rifle in the next. I would almost dare say that without the Soviet AK-47 taking hold most nations would not have assault rifles, just semi-auto ones.


Not that I disagree, but nevertheless, like I said to Ward...


But when everyone else can shot around 30 bullets at you, in a rapid fashion, & you've only got somewhere between 5 to 10 bullets (depending on model) to shot back in a relative slow fashion, it's time to join the club ;)


And it's not as if the British didn't realise this early in the war. Afterall the Sten came from such a realisation. Even the Tommy was looked at at one time &, indeed, used by British & Commonwealth forces...
 
How about if Great Britain took up the design of the Polish exile Capt S. Jansen when he first arrived in the UK instead of after the war.

From securityarms.com
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Helv]The EM-2 was spawned from the realization after World War II that the bolt action rifle was no longer the pinnacle of rifle technology. The call went forth to design a new automatic rifle as the Americans and Germans had done before them. The design fell to a Polish native who had fled to England during the war, Stefan Janson. The design made use of the then untested bullpup design, it was designed to fire the 280 caliber round developed by Fabrique Nationale during this period from a 20 round box magazine. The rifle was fitted with a optic sight which did not magnify the target but merely allowing the shooter to aim quicker than with iron sights. The sight is designed into a carrying handle to help protect it from damage in the field. The magazine used was designed to allow the use of stripper clips to reload the magazine quicker than capable by hand. The weapon is capable of semiautomatic firing and full automatic bursts, the weapon is accurate out to ranges at 800 yards. Ironically had it not been for the re-election of Churchill to Prime Minister the 280 cartridge and then EM-2 may have been retained in service past 1951. Churchill began steps to standardize within the European Community and United States by adopting the 7.62 NATO round in the form of the FN-FAL. [/FONT]
[FONT=Verdana, Arial, Helvetica, Helv]
[/FONT]

300px-Rifle_Automatic_7mm_Number_9_Mark_1_EM2.jpg
 
The M1 Garand isn't counted as an assault rifle if I recall...


The M1 Garand was a battle rifle meaning a semi-automatic (M1) or selective fire (FN FAL) rifle chambered in a heavy high-powered round i.e. the 30-06 or .308(civilian version of the 7.62) as opposed to the STG 44 which was an assault rifle meaning it is a lighter weapon with selective fire capabilities chambered in an intermediate higher velocity round similar to the 5.56 (.223 civilian).
 
How about if Great Britain took up the design of the Polish exile Capt S. Jansen when he first arrived in the UK instead of after the war.

From securityarms.com


300px-Rifle_Automatic_7mm_Number_9_Mark_1_EM2.jpg


You should show this to Landshark. He'll go all wobbly at the knees... ;)
 
Tony Williams had the intriguing alt-hist idea of turning the Bren into an automatic rifle. Hopefully he'll see this thread and re-post the details.
 
Tony Williams had the intriguing alt-hist idea of turning the Bren into an automatic rifle. Hopefully he'll see this thread and re-post the details.

A lightweight Bren as a personal weapon, I like it. :cool:

The EM2 design was similar to the 1927 Soviet Degtyarov DP-27 so Capt Janson could have conceived it's design as soon as he reached the UK and started working for Enfields.

The British Army were not convinced of the need for an automatic personal weapon whilst they had infantry that could fire 20 aimed shots a minute. That is hit men 300yds away consistently 20 times a minute with 20 rounds.

Even when we had the SLR it did not have an automatic fire setting. Fitted with a 20 round magazine you had to be well trained to beat that 20 rounds a minute figure.

A colleague of mine once used his personal Mk 4 Enfield in an APWT (Annual Personal Weapon Test) He beat a lot of us that were using SLRs. At 600yds we couldn't touch his scores.
 
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