WWII The Russian War

[Clibanarius]

So I read that somewhere that France and Britian contemplated bombing Russia.

Obviously if this happened that could very well mean that when the US entered the war on France and Britain's side it could mean Russia declaring war on the US and the US along with Japan, Italy and Germany.

So, how likely does this seem to anyone? What would you want to see? And what ideas and suggestions do you have?

 

[Clibanarius]

I feel like the fat girl at the prom.

 

[Bob the Great]

American wins with nukes or not at all.

 

[Clibanarius]

This would occur during WWII so nukes (except for one or two at most) are out.

What makes you say that?

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

General view was that the USSR wasn't any friend of the West's but that Nazi Germany and its allies were even worse, plus Germany's in a big position to be setting up right on Britain's doorstep (i.e. Belgium) which is historically going to make Britain very, very hostile to any power that has done or is capable of doing that. So it is an issue of geography as well too, sure the Soviets are scary but they're far away, are you more scared of the big, burly ex-con who lives in a different city or who's your next door neighbor? Yes it's a silly analogy but that's kind of how it was foreign policy wise.

Also it's not just Russian, yes I know that's the common term but it's better to say Soviet, otherwise you exclude all the Belorussians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Tajiks, Georgians... you get my point, who were all part of the Soviet Union.

Also...

How does the US enter this hypothetical war with Japan being on the Allied side against the Soviet Union? This may well mean no Pearl Harbor since Japan has bigger fish to fry and can get the resources it needs (and that motivated the Pearl Harbor attack) elsewhere.

As for the likelihood well I did go over it but overall I'd say kinda unlikely, a lot of AH assumes really easy alliances of convenience (and sometimes that's justified) but in WWII's case it would require huge provocative action that established the Soviet Union as basically as big of a threat as OTL Nazi Germany was thought of as and that's just not in the cards for Soviet leadership at this time, Stalin was looking to reclaim historical Russian possessions and strengthen the USSR's place in the world but he wasn't about to go about doing it in a way that would turn everyone against them.

 

[Bob the Great]

General view was that the USSR wasn't any friend of the West's but that Nazi Germany and its allies were even worse, plus Germany's in a big position to be setting up right on Britain's doorstep (i.e. Belgium) which is historically going to make Britain very, very hostile to any power that has done or is capable of doing that. So it is an issue of geography as well too, sure the Soviets are scary but they're far away, are you more scared of the big, burly ex-con who lives in a different city or who's your next door neighbor? Yes it's a silly analogy but that's kind of how it was foreign policy wise.

Also it's not just Russian, yes I know that's the common term but it's better to say Soviet, otherwise you exclude all the Belorussians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Tajiks, Georgians... you get my point, who were all part of the Soviet Union.

Also...

How does the US enter this hypothetical war with Japan being on the Allied side against the Soviet Union? This may well mean no Pearl Harbor since Japan has bigger fish to fry and can get the resources it needs (and that motivated the Pearl Harbor attack) elsewhere.

As for the likelihood well I did go over it but overall I'd say kinda unlikely, a lot of AH assumes really easy alliances of convenience (and sometimes that's justified) but in WWII's case it would require huge provocative action that established the Soviet Union as basically as big of a threat as OTL Nazi Germany was thought of as and that's just not in the cards for Soviet leadership at this time, Stalin was looking to reclaim historical Russian possessions and strengthen the USSR's place in the world but he wasn't about to go about doing it in a way that would turn everyone against them.

Yah its probably impossible, even if an alliance was achieved Hitler would probably end up betraying the Soviet Union like the dumbass he is. But if it were to happen I think the USA would need nukes to win, since D-day is not happening with a Germany not fighting for its life against the most powerful army in the world (1944).

Japan would probably still join the axis. Their little war was over pretty early and Japans reasons for attacking the USA still exist.

Unless the US lifts the embargo due the Japan being an ally...

 

[HeavyWeaponsGuy]

If Japan joins the war they'll be a non-entity soon enough. But again, Japan's motivations were all about resources, the Soviet Union has them by the boatload so that puts Japan's need for things in the Pacific on hold, the US lifting its embargo is unlikely but it would help. If they don't Japan is fighting a major war against a vastly superior foe, they'll simply be trounced if they fight the US, Japan's leadership is ballsy and borderline stupid in some cases but not that stupid. Japan as a power will not do much in the grand scheme of things. They're strong for the Asian region but their internal flaws and inferior well... everything compared to other powers simply puts them on a lower level, they're secondary, they're helpful but they won't last forever, their own power will be much like OTL, a footnote in that of others.

Wait how did we get to the Germans not going to war with the USSR? One will probably attack the other eventually, Germany occupied by enemies on the Western Front will only make an unpopular, untrustworthy regime (from the Soviet point of view and well... everyone else's) look like it has a gigantic target painted on its back. Unless this is an assumption that they'll get distracted by Japan (they could crush them with Siberian divisions and troops in Mongolia and on the Manchurian/Chinese border, they don't need the gigantic force they need to beat Germany) the Soviets are more likely than not to get rid of Germany at its most vulnerable rather than wait for the possibility that it will win and become even more powerful, and guess what? Two huge powers right next to each other with one power fresh out of a war it just won against all its other major enemies? The Soviets would surely be next in such a setup, they won't take that chance if they think that's the case.

 

[Clibanarius]

General view was that the USSR wasn't any friend of the West's but that Nazi Germany and its allies were even worse, plus Germany's in a big position to be setting up right on Britain's doorstep (i.e. Belgium) which is historically going to make Britain very, very hostile to any power that has done or is capable of doing that. So it is an issue of geography as well too, sure the Soviets are scary but they're far away, are you more scared of the big, burly ex-con who lives in a different city or who's your next door neighbor? Yes it's a silly analogy but that's kind of how it was foreign policy wise.

Also it's not just Russian, yes I know that's the common term but it's better to say Soviet, otherwise you exclude all the Belorussians, Ukrainians, Kazakhs, Kyrgyz, Tajiks, Georgians... you get my point, who were all part of the Soviet Union.

Also...

How does the US enter this hypothetical war with Japan being on the Allied side against the Soviet Union? This may well mean no Pearl Harbor since Japan has bigger fish to fry and can get the resources it needs (and that motivated the Pearl Harbor attack) elsewhere.

Wait, what? I never said anything about the EoJ being an American ally.

My plan is that WWII starts out like it did OTL but with Britain bombing Russia in late 1940 (what with the Russia-Germany neutrality pact and all) and Russia declares war on Britain and France and Germany began Barbarossa thinking that Russia will be weak with Britain attacking it.

As for the likelihood well I did go over it but overall I'd say kinda unlikely, a lot of AH assumes really easy alliances of convenience (and sometimes that's justified) but in WWII's case it would require huge provocative action that established the Soviet Union as basically as big of a threat as OTL Nazi Germany was thought of as and that's just not in the cards for Soviet leadership at this time, Stalin was looking to reclaim historical Russian possessions and strengthen the USSR's place in the world but he wasn't about to go about doing it in a way that would turn everyone against them.

The idea is that Soviet's supplying Germany with grain and oil and the friendship between the two panics combined with losses Britain's suffered panics the Empire into bombing Russia in an attempt to halt the supplies.

Russia declares war on Britian and Hitler decides that with Russia being attacked by Britain now's a good time to begin Barbarossa.

Japan attacks Russia as well and then bombs Pearl Harbor and when the US enters the war on Britain's side Russia declares war on them as well.

Yah its probably impossible, even if an alliance was achieved Hitler would probably end up betraying the Soviet Union like the dumbass he is. But if it were to happen I think the USA would need nukes to win, since D-day is not happening with a Germany not fighting for its life against the most powerful army in the world (1944).

Japan would probably still join the axis. Their little war was over pretty early and Japans reasons for attacking the USA still exist.

Unless the US lifts the embargo due the Japan being an ally...

I think you guys read something that's not there in the OP I never said anything about a US-EoJ alliance. And the Pacific war wasn't over fairly early.

Also, the Red Army of WWII was highly overrated, Germany wasn't fighting for its life against Russia until about '44-45 and contrary to the Soviet propaganda they were getting their butts kicked by the Wehrmacht and the most powerful army in the world was the US Army.

My plan is the Soviet Union vs Germany and Japan vs Britain and its allies vs the US vs the Axis and Russia.

Wait how did we get to the Germans not going to war with the USSR?

That's a good question and another would be how did we get on to the US being a Japanese ally?

 

[Meadow]

There's an Operation Pike TL somewhere around here. I love the idea of an Axis made up of a secular hyper-modern Republican Empire (Germany), a revanchist claimant to Ancient Rome (Italy), an egalitarian Socialist Workers' State (the USSR) and an imperialist oriental Empire steeped in tradition (Japan).

 

[RGB]

Also, the Red Army of WWII was highly overrated, Germany wasn't fighting for its life against Russia until about '44-45 and contrary to the Soviet propaganda they were getting their butts kicked by the Wehrmacht and the most powerful army in the world was the US Army.

Isn't it great when there's someone knowldgeable like you to dispel propaganda and educate us all?

And you were wondering about being the lonely girl at the prom. There you have your answer.

 

[Blue Max]

It's an interesting development. Hitler had wanted Stalin to send his forces south, to attack India and divert them from his planned attack against the Soviet Union.


This means a massive push into Iran, Afghanistan, and in all likelihood Turkey. The Soviets would clearly prevail over the UK in this effort, but in doing so they will surely damn themselves when Germany blazes into the Soviet Union.


Or perhaps not. I find it hard to believe that Stalin would really want to fight a war with the UK over Finland. There may be some awkward way out of the emerging conflict at a peace table, and I wonder if Stalin would be willing to fold.


While Stalin did completely trust Hitler, he never wound up holding the sack alone. A UK-Soviet War, combined with a truce between the Axis and Allies, is the worst of all possible worlds for Stalin, and I'd have to think the red Tsar would be looking for an out.


The destruction through betrayal variation of Soviet Forces streaming south in 1940 as Germany crushes France only to be thousands of miles from home as the Germans turn East is possible. Given that the Germans are utterly insane in their demands, there will be no truce between Germany and the Soviet Union. The question then becomes: Who can offer a better deal for Britain?


The Soviet-German war will obviously become the main conflict of WWII, and its to Britain's direct benefit to ensure both parties lose. How to play the Balance of Power one final time, to ensure that both nations are left broken, that is a question I'd like to see answered.