WWII Nazi victory-Nazi America

Rather more energetic I would think, the Communists were stuck at the Elbe, and had NATO as counterbalances, not sitting on the Atlantic coast of France with only a weakened UK
On the flip side China would be Western aligned most likely, especially after defeating Japan. And the Nazis had an even more inefficient system than the Soviets.
 
On the flip side China would be Western aligned most likely, especially after defeating Japan. And the Nazis had an even more inefficient system than the Soviets.
Do remember that Nationalist China had very good relations with Germany up until roughly 1938, it being anything but self interested is unlikely.

Inefficiency is not something that can easily be seen without hindsight
 

CalBear

Moderator
Donor
Monthly Donor
The Americas, along with the "Pacific Region" (Oz, the PI, Japan, Korea, etc.) would be an armed camp similar to OTL's Cold War.

The Reich had no more hope of invading and defeating the U.S. than it did of establishing colonies on Triton
 
While you may not see a "Nazi" America, there was certainly a good number of Americans who admired Hitler's methods and results prior to WWII (getting rid of Communists, reining in labor unions, putting Jews in their place). In a scenario where Germany "wins" - Dunkirk fails, Churchill out & replaced by Halifax and Russia standing alone against Germany (which IMHO could result in the Germans taking what they want in the east) an America drifting towards fascism is not unrealistic. {read Sinclair Lewis' "It Can't Happen Here"} An America with blacks everywhere disenfranchised and national Jim Crow to the max. The quotas and restrictions on Jews in education, housing, employment widened. A supreme Court that allows a good deal of flexibility on free speech suppression even without a constitutional amendment.

In that sort of Germany wins scenario, I expect you'd either see a USA arming to the teeth and building what alliances it could, and do9ing everything and anything to keep the Nazis out of the western hemisphere, or an America that goes well down the road to fascism if not all the way. An America that has the attitudes and politics of 1938 won't be possible in a Nazis win scenario.

If the Germans are allowed to "occupy" Canada, or build bases in Mexico then an "invasion" is possible, but the USA allowing either of these is as unlikely as "Fall Adler" with an amphibious landing on Long Island.
 
The Americas, along with the "Pacific Region" (Oz, the PI, Japan, Korea, etc.) would be an armed camp similar to OTL's Cold War.

The Reich had no more hope of invading and defeating the U.S. than it did of establishing colonies on Triton

"Challenge accepted!" - Werner von Braun
 

missouribob

Banned
With a PoD of 1933 I'd have FDR shot and killed. The Second American Civil War from The Falcon Cannot Hear occurs. Without American support in the war and some other butterflies the Nazis defeat the Soviet Union in the 40s and break Britain to a stalemate. The U.S. Civil War never ends. In the 1950s the Nazis complete Sealion backed by nuclear arms. By the late 1950s the Nazis launch an amphibious invasion of the United States liberally using nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

So basically the only way for that to occur would be for the United States to not exist by ATL's WW2. A suppose there is a fridge universe in which a U.S.-Nazi Cold War occurs after a Nazi victory in WW2 that goes hot in the 1960s resulting in rump-Nazi and rump-American states. From the ruins the Nazi state survives, rebuilds and by the 1980s using all WMD within their arsenal is goosestepping their way into rump-America during a SECOND atomic war...not very likely scenario honestly.
 

bguy

Donor
With a PoD of 1933 I'd have FDR shot and killed. The Second American Civil War from The Falcon Cannot Hear occurs. Without American support in the war and some other butterflies the Nazis defeat the Soviet Union in the 40s and break Britain to a stalemate. The U.S. Civil War never ends. In the 1950s the Nazis complete Sealion backed by nuclear arms. By the late 1950s the Nazis launch an amphibious invasion of the United States liberally using nuclear, biological and chemical weapons.

The death of FDR is nowhere near enough of a POD to get a Second American Civil War. Garner supported much of the New Deal (and indeed on deposit insurance was more progressive than FDR was), so the US economy shouldn't be that much worse off under President Garner than it was IOTL. (Labor relations will be worse since Garner won't tolerate sit-down strikes and might veto the Wagner Act, but labor unrest is not going to cause a Second American Civil War when President Garner has also enacted deposit insurance, a comprehensive public works programs, farm-price supports, and social security.)

Now Garner almost certainly won't run for reelection in 1940, and that conceivably could open the door for an isolationist like Burton Wheeler to win the Democratic nomination that year. (I personally think Garner would go with James Farley as his veep in '36, but maybe Garner thinks he needs a western progressive to help ward off a challenge from Huey Long and thus picks Wheeler to be his veep which would leave Wheeler well positioned to win the Democratic nomination in 1940.) However, if World War 2 happens on schedule and France falls before the election then the only way Wheeler is going to be elected president is if the Republicans also nominate an isolationist.

If both parties run isolationists in 1940 (say a Burton Wheeler vs Robert Taft election) then a Nazi victory in Europe becomes extremely likely, but even if the Nazis force the British to terms and then go on to defeat the Soviets, they still aren't going to be able to conquer the US by conventional means. (Even a President Wheeler or a President Taft will fully fund the Two Ocean Navy Act if the Nazis are dominating Europe and the Nazis are never going to be able to win a naval arms race against the United States, since the US can dedicate all its resources to its navy and air force while the Nazis will be hamstrung by having to also maintain a huge land army to hold down occupied Europe).
 

missouribob

Banned
they still aren't going to be able to conquer the US by conventional means.
If the Nazis invade North America it will be backed by the force of nuclear arms. As to Garner I'm sorry I don't know much about his economics but I thought he was more conservative than FDR on a host of economic issues? Didn't he not support a bank holiday? Wasn't he iffy on the Federal Reserve? I'll do more research into myself, but even if my PoD falls my basic points still stand. The only way you get an invasion of the United States by the Nazi's during the 20th century is to either balkanize the United States, make the United States isolationist AND have the Nazi's develop a robust nuclear program and be willing to use it.
 

Thomas1195

Banned
If the Nazis invade North America it will be backed by the force of nuclear arms.
The only realistic way for Germany to invent nuke is not going Nazi. Nazi scared off not only Jewish scientists but also left-leaning ones (a vast number of European scientists were either liberals or socialists)
 

missouribob

Banned
The only realistic way for Germany to invent nuke is not going Nazi. Nazi scared off not only Jewish scientists but also left-leaning ones (a vast number of European scientists were either liberals or socialists)
Presumably by the 1950s in such a timeline they would come to see the need for nuclear weapons, probably because Fortress America has them. I'm not saying have the Nazis develop nuclear weapons in the 40s. I'm saying after a Nazi victory and the Americans develop it first they play a game of catch up.
 

bguy

Donor
If the Nazis invade North America it will be backed by the force of nuclear arms. As to Garner I'm sorry I don't know much about his economics but I thought he was more conservative than FDR on a host of economic issues? Didn't he not support a bank holiday? Wasn't he iffy on the Federal Reserve?

Garner was a Wilsonian progressive who fully supported the Federal Reserve Act. I've never heard that he was against the bank holiday, and Bascom Timmons' biography, Garner of Texas, says that Garner's first policy disagreement with FDR was over having the federal government provide deposit insurance (with Garner being the more progressive figure on that issue since he was the one arguing in favor of federal deposit insurance) and doesn't mention Garner having any problems with the bank holiday, so I doubt Garner opposed it.

Now Garner was more economically conservative than FDR in some areas. He was skeptical of the N.R.A. because he thought it would prove unworkable in practice. He wasn't a fan of unions (and absolutely hated sitdown strikes which he considered to be pretty much an act of theft). And he was more of a budget hawk than FDR, so he might try to spend a little less than FDR did on relief spending. But even on that last point it must be remembered that Garner (while Speaker of the House) was a co-sponsor of the 1932 Garner-Wagner relief bill (a 2 billion dollar public works program that was vetoed by Hoover), so he is certainly going to support a large public works program. And regardless of who the president is, the Congress at this time is going to pass large relief spending by veto-proof margins (OTL even FDR got his veto overturned when he tried to stop a 2 billion dollar veteran bonus bill), so I don't see how things can ever get some bad that the country falls into revolution or civil war.

I'll do more research into myself, but even if my PoD falls my basic points still stand. The only way you get an invasion of the United States by the Nazi's during the 20th century is to either balkanize the United States, make the United States isolationist AND have the Nazi's develop a robust nuclear program and be willing to use it.

I'll agree with that. A Nazi occupation of the United States is only possible if the Nazis somehow develop nuclear weapons (and the missiles or bombers necessary to get them to the United States) well in advance of the United States and then carry out a crippling nuclear strike on the US before the US develops the ability to retaliate in kind. (Though like Thomas1195, I don't really see how the Nazis could ever get sufficiently far ahead of the United States in nuclear weapons to be able to nuke the United States without getting destroyed in return.)
 
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