WWII:Japanese invade Hawaii

Hyperion

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This is something silly that I've noticed a lot.

Why, please tell me why, do people assume that if Japan won both Coral Sea and Midway, that the US would have zero carriers left to fight them off?

Even after Midway, USS Saratoga, which had been stuck in drydock for several months from a torpedo attack in January 1942, showed up a day or two after the battle. She delivered replacement planes to Enterprise and Hornet.

USS Wasp showed up from the Atlantic at the end of June 1942, and went on to fight at Guadalcanal?

This says nothing of the cruisers and destroyers that would still be around, and several battleships, mostly old ones, that where still available.

This says nothing of, what, 400 odd land based aircraft on Hawaii, and the fact that if need be, Nimitz could likely call in more from California or elsewhere in the US mainland if he had enough warning and enough time.
 

CalBear

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Dude, haven't you got it yet? This is an alternate history forum unless you try to violate the Sacred Canon:In ANY parallel universe in which earth is populated by the human species Great Britain CANNOT be invaded during the WWII, and neither can the god-blessed U.S.A. , or any of its dominions(with the possible exception of Guam? You gotta check this with the Keepers of the Sacred Scroll I guess) . Stick with the Normans and the readcoats of 1812.


Cute.

Come up with a workable plan. That is all that is ever asked.

So, if you have one, post it. If you don't... Well, we all know you don't.
 
About how many troops did the US have in Hawaii around Pearl harbor day? The Japanese would probably need at least three times that to have a reasonable probability of taking the islands. Did the Japanese have the ability to deliver and supply that many troops that far from their home islands? That's the first hurdle. The second big hurdle is maintaining at least air superiority during the invasion. If the US carriers were all destroyed in port during the surprise attack this might be feasible if the US was unable to deliver ground-based air to Hawaii.
 
The Japanese would probably need at least three times that to have a reasonable probability of taking the islands.
They took Malaya having force only half as strong as the British army. OTOH, Oahu is many times smaller (and easier to defend), while U.S. Army and Marines were somewhat better armed than the British troops.
Did the Japanese have the ability to deliver and supply that many troops that far from their home islands?
Firstly, the invasion fleet would be detected very far from Hawaii, with absence of surprise attack as a result. Secondly, the invasion of Oahu in December, 1941, while it could be remotely possible (but not necessarily successful) with almost all available Japanese shipping tonnage devoted to this operation alone, would mean no Philippine invasion, no Malaya campaign, no operations against the DEI, etc. Thirdly, supplying Oahu garrison would prove much, much more difficult and costly than even getting them there.
In short, said invasion would be utterly counterproductive to the Japanese war effort: they would spend all their (limited) resources on Hawaii, leaving themselves without desperately needed South East Asian dominions.
As for topic starter's idea of summer, 1942 invasion - sorry, this is ASB. The Americans on Hawaii were too strong by June, 1942.
 
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The logistics would be a pain in the neck. The only way I can think of invading North America would be through Alaska and island hop down to Seattle. Hawaii is pretty much out in the middle of nowhere, and would be a real challenge to invade. To take the island, all the Japanese have to do is force the Americans on Oahu to surrender. That would have to happen at the beginning of the war, because Oahu becomes a full-blown fortress within a year.
 
Those are the two big no no's on that there impossible. Now, ones that are possible but done to death are CSA Victory in US civil war, Central Powers Victory in WWI, Soviet Attack on NATO, and a German WWII victory.

There's a thread in off-topic that's just things a newbie should know. Check it out. I'm to lazy to get the link.


And leave the Dutch alone; that's my area of wanking... oh my, that did not sound right at all. :eek:
 
Mike Stearns...

1) There is no possibility of such a raid. Japan does not have the ships fast enough to carry even a few battalions of men to raid ahead of the attack on Midway, not to mention that a powerful escort would be needed at a time when the IJN would have been hard pressed to find a spare destroyer or two.

2) The last thing Yamamoto wanted was the USN being distracted from Midway. The plan's goal was to lure the USN into the so-called decisive battle that Japan's officer corps couldn't stop fixating on. A diversion which ends with Midway in Japanese hands and the USN deciding to wait a week or two and then take it back while the IJN races to the nearest refueling base is a disaster for Japan.
 
Cute.

Come up with a workable plan. That is all that is ever asked.

So, if you have one, post it. If you don't... Well, we all know you don't.
Oh, no you got me there...Or it may be that I do not actually HAVE TO come up with anything . I browse through these forums for FUN .Still it is a fact that out of the myriad improbabilities/imposibilities posted throughout the site ,there are commentators fixated on disproving quite few. Come to think of it, it is mainly two scenarios that seem to attract the most criticism; Sealion and an U.S./Japanese standoff in the Pacific . Just ask yourself , what the chances were that Mannstein's Plan for an Ardennes offensive could have worked quite as splendidly as they did in OTL . It is O.K. to rationalise , if you leave the bias aside
 
A scenario like in Turtledove's Days of Infamy series would likely be their bet. Catch the US army by surprise before they're ready. By 1942 there's going to be more planes, more men and more ready and alert men.

Turtledove's scenario gives Japan just about the best luck possible(very much stretching that out too). Overall moral of the story is even though that things go as best as they can for Japan, the industrial might of the US just can't be overcome.
 
Dude, haven't you got it yet? This is an alternate history forum unless you try to violate the Sacred Canon:In ANY parallel universe in which earth is populated by the human species Great Britain CANNOT be invaded during the WWII, and neither can the god-blessed U.S.A. , or any of its dominions(with the possible exception of Guam? You gotta check this with the Keepers of the Sacred Scroll I guess) . Stick with the Normans and the readcoats of 1812.

Uhh, when did Great Britain every have its own species?
 

CalBear

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Oh, no you got me there...Or it may be that I do not actually HAVE TO come up with anything . I browse through these forums for FUN .Still it is a fact that out of the myriad improbabilities/imposibilities posted throughout the site ,there are commentators fixated on disproving quite few. Come to think of it, it is mainly two scenarios that seem to attract the most criticism; Sealion and an U.S./Japanese standoff in the Pacific . Just ask yourself , what the chances were that Mannstein's Plan for an Ardennes offensive could have worked quite as splendidly as they did in OTL . It is O.K. to rationalise , if you leave the bias aside

Perhaps the reason the two scenarios that draw the most dismissive and negative comments do so because they have been throughly disproved, not simply by those here on the Board, but by actual, Honest-to-God military professionals and serious scholars.

This Board is far more accommodating toward new members (n00b being reserved for very special cases) than most forums, but there are a few scenarios that have been beaten, not simply to death, but into dust.
 
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