WWII in world post-Central Powers victory

What do you think World War II would be like in world where Germany won WWI, assuming it sill happens?
Point of divergences: no USW, so USA remains neutral and France surrenders in 1917 or 1918. Russia still goes communist (although probably more contained than in OTl - no Ukraine).
I think Nazi-like regime is likely to come to power in France. Even if it does not, anyways France obviously would want revenge, and Britain probably too. Not sure if they will make alliance with Soviet Russia...
 
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i'd say some belgian man born near the french border aspiring to be a photographer moves to france, becomes a politician, comes to power and murders several ethnic minorities until the central powers come in to kick their ass
 
I think the "country X goes Nazi because it lost a war" trope is overused. An obvious counterpoint is France itself. France suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Prussia. It lost its reputation of Europe's top dog. The lost Alsace-Lorraine became the archetypal irredenta. It was made to pay considerable reparations. And yet it remained one of the world's most democratic countries.
 
Really unlikely that WW2 would happen. Germany would have all major mines of France and France would be totally unwillingful fight third time against Prussia/Germany when it was lost twice in 50 years.

But if this war still occurs Germany and its allies might still win depending what Italy, UK and USA are doing. UK might very well be ally of Germany. There is not grudge between the countries.
 
With the Entente surrendering in 1917/1918 I doubt revanchism by itself will be enough to make either France or the UK want to go to war again. If Germany can hold onto the client states carved out from Brest-Litovsk, Russia is out of the fight for the foreseeable future. The only scenario I can see in which another war happens is if Germany is too war fatigued after its win in 1918 to commit to holding anything beyond Poland/Lithuania, which can lead to a Russia strong enough to contend with Germany. While France would be greatly traumatized from WWI I'd assume that Germany devoting most if not nearly all of their forces to fight a resurgent Russia would be enough of a push for France to try and march in and retake Alsace-Lorraine + whatever else they've lost.

But to begin with I don't think Germany would give up its gains from Brest-Litovsk, and with enough wrangling they'd probably succeed in setting up Ukraine, Belarus, and the Baltic countries as staunchly pro-German and anti-Russian allies.
 

Deleted member 1487

I think the "country X goes Nazi because it lost a war" trope is overused. An obvious counterpoint is France itself. France suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Prussia. It lost its reputation of Europe's top dog. The lost Alsace-Lorraine became the archetypal irredenta. It was made to pay considerable reparations. And yet it remained one of the world's most democratic countries.
That's only because there were so few Republics or Constitutional Monarchies as of 1914, not because France itself was particularly liberal by modern standards. After all it was a rather brutal imperial power:
In 1884, the leading proponent of colonialism, Jules Ferry, declared; "The higher races have a right over the lower races, they have a duty to civilize the inferior races." Full citizenship rights – assimilation – were offered, although in reality "assimilation was always receding [and] the colonial populations treated like subjects not citizens."[8] France sent small numbers of settlers to its empire, with the notable exception of Algeria, where the French settlers took power while being a minority.
Algeria was really no different in set up than Apartheid South Africa.

WW1 France was in many ways a rather fascistic state, just with a strong left movement which pushed back on government overreach in Metropolitan France.
During the war France was more dictatorial than Germany, especially as H-L had to back down from from their 1916-17 coercive labor policy due to strikes:
 
That's only because there were so few Republics or Constitutional Monarchies as of 1914, not because France itself was particularly liberal by modern standards. After all it was a rather brutal imperial power:

Algeria was really no different in set up than Apartheid South Africa.

But the Franco-Prussian war did not lead to any notable change of colonial policy. It's not like the Franco-Prussian war caused France to suddenly decide to, say, exterminate the Bretons and non-French Algerians.

WW1 France was in many ways a rather fascistic state, just with a strong left movement which pushed back on government overreach in Metropolitan France.
During the war France was more dictatorial than Germany, especially as H-L had to back down from from their 1916-17 coercive labor policy due to strikes:

These were emergency wartime policies. Fascism was not inherent in the French system. OTOH the Third Reich was totalitarian from the start and had no intention of easing up once the war ended.
 

Nephi

Banned
i'd say some belgian man born near the french border aspiring to be a photographer moves to france, becomes a politician, comes to power and murders several ethnic minorities until the central powers come in to kick their ass

Probably
 

Deleted member 1487

But the Franco-Prussian war did not lead to any notable change of colonial policy. It's not like the Franco-Prussian war caused France to suddenly decide to, say, exterminate the Bretons and non-French Algerians.
Why change the repressions they were already engaged in?

These were emergency wartime policies. Fascism was not inherent in the French system. OTOH the Third Reich was totalitarian from the start and had no intention of easing up once the war ended.
Because they won. Germany went from a monarchy to a Republic and due to French actions in the interwar period went Fascist...like Italy and most of Europe. Besides it's not like France did have it's own right wing/Fascist movements:
 
Why change the repressions they were already engaged in?

Because that's the idea of the "X loses a war and proceeds to go Nazi" cliche.

Because they won.

And if they had lost, the wartime system would have persisted indefinitely? I don't think so. It's not like the German and Russian monarchies survived their countries' defeats.

EDIT: Also, Italy won, but went Fascist anyway.
 
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I think the "country X goes Nazi because it lost a war" trope is overused. An obvious counterpoint is France itself. France suffered a humiliating defeat at the hands of Prussia. It lost its reputation of Europe's top dog. The lost Alsace-Lorraine became the archetypal irredenta. It was made to pay considerable reparations. And yet it remained one of the world's most democratic countries.
Keep in mind that though similar in the sense that both humiliated the loser, World War 1 was far greater a conflict than the Franco-Prussian War, which as much as it hurt French pride, wasn't necessarily that destructive. In fact, France losing so clearly made it an easier pill to swallow in some ways (if you're a German in 1918 and only really being told the good news, the results of the eventual Versailles Treaty probably won't make much sense because it's not like any German territory has actually been lost).

As for the OP, if a Second World War was to start by French aggression against Germany, I'd only expect the UK to join in after France proves that a direct attack on the strongest European nation isn't a terrible idea, but should France perform well and a suitable casus belli emerge you could well see Britain putting its hat in the ring. The Soviet Union I'm rather skeptical on. Maybe if the Central Powers seem particularly weak at a point they'll take a stab at it, however more likely the USSR will focus on what is has left. Side Note: I assume by "Nazi-like" in this context you mean authoritarian and extremely nationalist, not necessarily with the same racial views (swap French for German), because either could have a pretty significant impact on France's mid-war actions.
 
Really unlikely that WW2 would happen. Germany would have all major mines of France and France would be totally unwillingful fight third time against Prussia/Germany when it was lost twice in 50 years.

But if this war still occurs Germany and its allies might still win depending what Italy, UK and USA are doing. UK might very well be ally of Germany. There is not grudge between the countries.
The British have historically opposed the greatest power on the European continent. In this scenario, that would still be Germany.
 
There are other ways France might get metal, perhaps by recycling the trash of other countries if nothing else. Solar power could become a focus of French research and they still have a developed, technological economy. While now a secondary power, underestimating them (or anyone else) is potentially dangerous. I think such a war might be delayed more than OTL but technologies might be different depending on the focus, Goddard might get more help from the US or private concerns here especially if the Depression is averted for example. If Norway is threatened mayne Knute Rockne returns to synthetic chemistry and advances artificial rubber by a decade or two, etc.
 
First I am dubious about calling it a world war, the circumstances for WW2 would not be present, in fact minimal butterflies would create a different geopolitical background for conflict. And I would argue that the antagonist will not be Germany unless one assumes it goes revolutionary communist and pursue a different trope.

Germany will be moving towards an even more liberal democracy within its existing constitutional monarchy. Policy will be guided by the desires of the SPD, Zentrum and the Liberals, more the left-wing, but I would see a lot more influence from the liberal right here. This is an industrial nation seeking resource imports and export markets, its diplomacy will be containment of Russia should it stay revolutionary and deter France, seek detente with the UK, seek "alliance" with the USA and otherwise gain allies/trade partners among non aligned states. Its other problem child would be a Fascist Italy. And that leaves a lot of complex plot twists out.

Japan likely stays aligned with the UK but has strongly opposing interests in China, its goals still put it on track to becoming an enemy. But here the UK has a real competitor existing in Gernany and may appease Japan more, it may further acquiesce in Italian ambitions, or seek relations with Russia to offset Germany. One might see a lot of unrest in whatever happened in the OE.

Germany might join the USA as an "open door" club member in China, both have incentives to break the British Empire and even to breakup the French Empire. They will compete in Latin America but globally they have much in common. Or Germany could seek resources and market in Russia. It should rebuild its trade in China.

If you want the most likely two friction points it will be China and the OE. Both have British ambitions versus German interests, both draw in the other powers. But frankly I would not lightly predict another Anglo-Gernan war. Indeed I would be hard pressed to find too many points where friction heats to war even as in OTL it flowed so easily. I think one must be creative, deterministic or unlucky to spark any war significant enough to tumble all the players into it.
 

Deleted member 1487

Because that's the idea of the "X loses a war and proceeds to go Nazi" cliche.
Seemed to play out with every single CP state or successor state and some that were even on the winning side. It was less likely that the winners went Fascist, but those elements were there more in France than in Britain and could have been unleashed post-war if they lost.

And if they had lost, the wartime system would have persisted indefinitely? I don't think so. It's not like the German and Russian monarchies survived their countries' defeats.
The 3rd Republic would go down and it is much more likely then that Action Français then can pull a Mussolini.

EDIT: Also, Italy won, but went Fascist anyway.
Right, I mentioned that because they felt like they lost and were slighted because of how they weren't rewarded the way they wanted at Versailles.
 
And it would be burdensome to reiterate myself from other discussions, but at bottom the notion that a victorious Germany goes Nazi ignored the nearly perfect balance of butterfly flaps it takes to create the Hitler led revolution. Hitler was a revolutionary and seized power in a chaotic democracy, he needs a lot of perfect luck to get hands on power, luck that is quite amazing even in the Weimar.
 
WWII like WWI..could happen as could not, nothing is inevitable..till it happen. For me, the one would be started would not be the french..but Russia(Either Colour) or the british themselves
 
The France goes fascist trope is another I find less convincing. Revanche failed, the right is more discredited and the left have a left leaning Germany to seek rapprochement with in time. Although I accept that Vichy was a right wing reaction, it took being conquered by Germany to get it, and despite a few right wingish General led coups in past, the French are not that inclined to undo the Republic.

My feeling is that the polity is deeply divided and certainly angry but actually more easily slipping into writing off Alsace Lorraine. The left should actually strengthen but French politics will still be very complicated. A lot depends upon what Germany did to win, what it did to get a peace and what it does moving forward. Germany is rather ham fisted historically so I doubt things improve for anything less than a generation. But it may be that France finds dealing with Germany is not really that bitter.
 

Riain

Banned
If the CP win the world will revolve around 3 or 4 superpowers; greater German mitteleuropa, USA, USSR (after 20 years) with maybe an Anglo French strategic cooperation as a quasi 4th superpower.

The US will complete the expansion of the RA and NG to 175k and 440k by 1921 and the USN will go to 20 BBs, 6 BCs and 16 cruisers by 1921.

The Soviets did a forced industrialization that made them a match for OTL Germany.

Mitteleuropa would make Germany far more resilient.

Basically these 3 superpowers can't be fought by anyone other than another superpower. A-F quasi superpower is better than nothing but doesn't make them the equivalent of the other 3 due to their external lines of communication.
 
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