The Russian civil war was a massive conflict where the Red Army consisted of several million people. A few divisions would not be enough to break the Soviets, and the entente powers of OTL showed very little interest in putting what was sufficient to put the Soviets down due to lack of will following WW1.
WWII in world post-Central Powers victory
- Thread starter Siar
- Start date
Those early red army formatiosn are badly led, badly supplied, badly motivated and badly equipped, those are the reasons they tended to lose against newly established local armies even when heavily outnumbering them. Against proper forces that have assimilated the lessons of WW1 they would just melt away. All you really need is to take Petrograd and Moscow, supply them with bread and let your new, German alligned leadership recruit the locals to fight the reds with German weapons, officers and advisors.
Of course it's the will that's needed, i suspect geographic distance had an impact on French and British reluctance.
What is the map of Europe in 1920 after this CP victory, especially on the Western Front? Certainly Belgium is now a satellite and Luxembourg is now German as is at least the French iron mine complex near the border, but does Germany take the rest of Lorraine? Is there a DMZ along the order running to the sea? Does Germany rend Nord & Pais-de-Calais from France and weld them to Belgium to gain more seafront territory for naval bases? Did Italy join the CP offensives from the outset and if so what did they take from France?
Riain
Banned
In the west land grabs aren't nearly as important as securing open access to world markets without punitive tariff barriers. German civilian leaders knew that mitteleuropa was no substitute for the rest of the world as a market for German productivity. Therefore in the west everything was on the table in order to secure this access. Sure it might be nice to control Belgium and get a coal region but not at the expense of global trade, particularly as the German public was more interested in land in the East.
They can force the french to not put up Tariffs as a part of a peace treaty. If the Netherlands land has the choice between trading with puppet Belgium and Germany or the UK they will most likely pick Germany(due to being more dependant on them trade wise.) and most of the Nordic countries would do the same. therefore even if Britain starts a trade war after ww1 Germany would most likely have the economic weight to withstand and outlast it.(and that's not even going into how the British are going to have to pay back the loans to take out from the Americans. Something which would make recovering from ww1 even harder than a trade war alone would be.)
Alsace-Moselle will remain German, Luxembourg will become German, and Longwy will almost certainly be annexed if not the whole of Meurthe-et-Moselle. There had been discussions about moving the Franco-German-Belgian frontier west to the Meuse perhaps taking the whole of Lorraine as well, the Germans would later rend Nord and Pais-de-Calais from France and rend them unto Belgium while World War 2 saw the Germans preparing a large part of former Burgundy for German settlement and likely eventual annexation. Burgundy oresented an interesting question for pan-German advocates even in World War I given its history though by this point I think it would be difficult to rend if France survives intact. Should France collapse internally I think Germany would try to set up a satellite there. Splitting the French piece of Belgium off either as its own country or to unite with France had also been discussed even before the war while a DMZ running from Lorraine to the Channel in the event of a CP victory was also discussed.
This does not betray your points and I agree with most of your comments, but if we see
BooNZ
Banned
Many would argue there was an expectation the Entente (Russia and France) would be stronger than the CP powers and British pre-war diplomacy was driven more by perceived German weakness, rather than strength.
Geography means the Germans are far better placed to deal with the glorified militia in the east and the Kaiser is a far stronger proponent for the monarchy than Nicky's Entente chums.
It could just as easily be Imperial Russia, but the threat level would be similar. As outlined elsewhere on the thread, the rise of Imperial Russia (or the Soviets) would be greatly impaired without the Ukraine, but keeping little Russia away from Moscow's orbit would be very challenging.
Not entirely, it was more a choice between guns and bullets. During 1940 Germany diverted vast quantities of steel resources into munition production, to build reserves which prevously did not exist - tank production suffered accordingly. In respect of aircraft, German did not have the resources to prepare for mass production of aircraft before the war, so such production facilities did not come online until later in the war.
BooNZ
Banned
This was not the opinion of the German civilian decision makers during the war. The UK was the Germans largest trade partner and the main advocate for global free trade. The last thing the Germans wanted was a global trade war to close wealthy overseas markets to German goods. Those German decision makers were hesitant to even contemplate including Belgium in the Mittel Europa trading block, in case of offending the British. In the case of a German vicotory, the ones making the decisions would be the civilian German decision makers, not Laurel and Hardy.
Riain
Banned
Yep.
To be perfectly honest mitteleuropa was a bit shit as a trading area. It was good as a strategic buffer and a source of resources in wartime, which is why the Germans wanted to control it.
Hot take: A right-wing authoritarian France would probably be spending most of its energies attempting to speed up efforts to "civilize" their remaining colonies like Algeria (read: ram French culture down the throats of the locals while exploiting them and sending French settlers).
Why do everyone seem to think that we need a fascist or nazi power in Europe for alt WWII to happen. Look at Germany OTL: most of the political class wanted to owerturn the peace of Versailles - including Danzig and the corridor. We know that means war with Poland and likely WWII. A not nazi Germany in OTL interwar would be no gurarantee for the avoidance of a war between Germany and the West. Actually without nazi idiocy this Germany might be more dangerous.
Same time there is no need for France to go fascist or nazi after loosing WWI to take an anti german stance. London too is likely to seek to contain Germany in some way. And Soviet Russia's biggest potential enemy will be Germany.
If we speak of a late German victory Germany itself wont be in too good a state and if A-H fells apart its left without any major allies. It position would be far from unchallengable.
Same time there is no need for France to go fascist or nazi after loosing WWI to take an anti german stance. London too is likely to seek to contain Germany in some way. And Soviet Russia's biggest potential enemy will be Germany.
If we speak of a late German victory Germany itself wont be in too good a state and if A-H fells apart its left without any major allies. It position would be far from unchallengable.
Grey Wolf
Donor
I think Japan will be key. They won their war but ended up on the losing side because their allies folded. That is going to have massive repurcussions down the line
France would be probably threatened by a left wing coup. OTL French solders and Russian soldiers were fraternizing to a (for their leadership) frightening level when the revolution broke out in Russia, supposedly some units even threatened to march on Paris during the mutinies. If the generals and politicians who were supposed to be responsible for the generals lose the war they're facing mutinies, massive larbor strikes and uprisings of soldiers at minimum.
If France goes communist i suspect they'd lose their colonies as the British and Germans make up again by taking turns dismembering the French colonial empire.
I don't think thee would be WWII in a CP victory at all, Germany would just be too strong even for France and Russia at the same time, especially if they have Ukraine on their side.
I remember, when I did a series of maps in a CP victory thought exercise, I had a "Spring of '42" which was basically a series of 1848 style revolutions in Hungary, Poland, Belgium, Serbia, and Lithuania
I remember, when I did a series of maps in a CP victory thought exercise, I had a "Spring of '42" which was basically a series of 1848 style revolutions in Hungary, Poland, Belgium, Serbia, and Lithuania
The *Nazis would already have a combo of 1914+1938 borders when the war kicks off, if not more. That plus more competent leadership than OTL's mix of failed prostitutes, chicken farmers, proto-internet trolls, etc.
Maybe in this ATL you see a *Sea Lion being possible.
Maybe in this ATL you see a *Sea Lion being possible.
Even if France and Russia combined were stronger than Germany, their still two separate countries. Germany was the single greatest power in Europe.
If France goes communist thats not actually guaranteed - though very likely. In a communist France scenario Germany is just as surraunded by hostile powers as it was before WWI by the franco-russian alliance. If A-H collapses Germany will be dagerously alone to face these. Though they wont have to fear britain at least. A spanish revolution could kick start the war as Germany would probably support Franco and the red powers the republic.
France & Russia together with Britan where not strong enough to beat Germany in this timelime. How are the gonna threaten Germany if they start from a much lower power base?