WWII-era Automatic Rifles

[Dirk_Pitt]

I was just wondering something. Over lunch just now someone just told me they had a "WWII-era SKS assault rifle".

I was not aware that such a rifle existed. The only 40s era automatic rifles I was aware of were the STG-44 and the AK-47.

Of course I am assuming Assault=Automatic.

I apologize for my ignorance in advance. It was one of the reasons why I didn't "correct" him. Bare in mind however this particular gentleman has been known for making nonsensical statements in the past.

 

[mudhead]

If you mean a selective-fire weapon, this is the only one I can think of - the SKS was a self-loader/semi-auto design.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AVS-36

 

[FleetMac]

First of all, the SKS was neither an assault rifle (it wasn't full-automatic) nor used in WWII (although it could roughly be considered in the same era, it was adopted into service in 1949).

Secondly, the AK-47 was never used in WWII either, although the design work for both rifles went on during the Second World War.

And thirdly, there were experiments with creating automatic rifles elsewhere (the T20 Garand, the British Charlton Automatic Rifle) but they were never put into operational service.

Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about, is what I'm saying.

 

[Shadowwolf]

From what I have read, most armies thought that if all soldiers were given automatic guns then there would be large amount of wasted ammunition.

The old (spray and pray), school of gunnery.

The M-1 Garand was revolutionary in that it allowed the general infantryman a semi-automatic firearm. Patton called it the greatest battle implement ever created.

During WW2 the rifles used by the British, Russians, Germans, and Japanese were bolt-action rifles.

Though at the conclusion of the war many nations began to develop what we now call assault rifles.

 

[Kou Gakei]

The M-1 Garand was revolutionary in that it allowed the general infantryman a semi-automatic firearm. Patton called it the greatest battle implement ever created.

It was "revolutionary" in that only the United States had the peace and industry to make it a standard rifle. There were plenty of semi-automatic rifles in development at the same time and even before.

 

[BriefMortal]

From what I have read, most armies thought that if all soldiers were given automatic guns then there would be large amount of wasted ammunition.

The old (spray and pray), school of gunnery.

The M-1 Garand was revolutionary in that it allowed the general infantryman a semi-automatic firearm. Patton called it the greatest battle implement ever created.

During WW2 the rifles used by the British, Russians, Germans, and Japanese were bolt-action rifles.

Though at the conclusion of the war many nations began to develop what we now call assault rifles.

This'll be the same Patton that, had he had his way, would have had all American tanks look like hedgehogs with machine guns instead of spines.

 

[Dirk_Pitt]

First of all, the SKS was neither an assault rifle (it wasn't full-automatic) nor used in WWII (although it could roughly be considered in the same era, it was adopted into service in 1949).

Secondly, the AK-47 was never used in WWII either, although the design work for both rifles went on during the Second World War.

And thirdly, there were experiments with creating automatic rifles elsewhere (the T20 Garand, the British Charlton Automatic Rifle) but they were never put into operational service.

Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about, is what I'm saying.

I think there's been a misunderstanding, I know the AK-47 was never used during the war, but went into service soon after.

However I didn't know about that third point. Thank you. Something to talk to my dad about when I get home.

On that last bit, I assumed as much, but he isn't my friend. Every time I see him I have to suppress a strong feeling to punch him in the face.

 

[Kevin Renner]

There is the M2 .30 caliber carbine with selective fire introduced in 44/45.

 

[Delta Force]

He might have meant a semi-automatic battle rifle, of which there were several. The United States had the M1 Garand, the Soviets had the SVT-40, and the Germans had the Gewehr 41 and Gewehr 43.

There was also the FG 42, which used 7.92x57mm Mauser ammunition (standard German rifle ammunition) and was capable of fully automatic fire. The FG 42 had major recoil problems, but the United States used it as the basis for the later M60 machine gun.

The only actual assault rifle used in World War II was the StG 44, which fired 7.92x37mm "Kurz" (German for short) ammunition. It reduced the range, accuracy, and power of the weapon, but it was more controllable and successful. Before the StG 44, German soldiers had to chose between 9mm Parabellum weapons such as the MP 40 which were fully automatic but lacked power and range, or rifles, which were bulky and uncontrollable in fully automatic fire (if it was even an option). The StG 44 was a compromise, as it was more powerful than the pistols, less bulky than a rifle, and easier to control in fully automatic fire. The cartridge gave less range, but postwar analysis found that most combat took place within 300 yards, so anything beyond that was a bonus.

There were also the United States M1918 Browning Automatic Rifle and the British Bren gun, but those were light machine guns issued one per squad, they were never intended to equip entire armies.

 

[Mad Missouri]

First of all, the SKS was neither an assault rifle (it wasn't full-automatic) nor used in WWII (although it could roughly be considered in the same era, it was adopted into service in 1949).

<snap>

Your friend doesn't know what he's talking about, is what I'm saying.

Careful...you might not know what you're talking about either. From what I've read maybe as many as 1000 SKS proto-type test rifles saw combat at the very end of WW2.

 

[Kome]

You have no idea how much people would pay him if it turns out he actually had a Fedorov Automat.

 

[Kome]

Also for what its worth, i believe China did in fact retool their SKS rifles to have selective (ie automatic) fire. Not sure how thats possible, but it might be what he has.

That of course isnt WW2 era.

 

[FleetMac]

Careful...you might not know what you're talking about either. From what I've read maybe as many as 1000 SKS proto-type test rifles saw combat at the very end of WW2.

What's your source for that? If you mean the 1944 preproduction used by the 1st Byelorussian Front, or its use in the June 22nd offensive, it's still not a STANDARD-issue combat arm. And even then, outside of the tangential Type 63 Chinese rifle (which wasn't a pure SKS model), I don't recall any full-auto conversions successfully being fielded by any army. Now the Russian Tokarev rifle was issued to a decent amount in WWII, and Simonov's AVS-36 could do full-auto, but the latter was apparently withdrawn from service pretty fast after issues in Finland were discovered (such as the action being frozen solid due to excessive packing grease being unwiped). AFAIK there's nothing referring to combat use of the SKS aside from field testing under "combat conditions" outside some Guns and Ammo Surplus Firearms issue. Make of that what you will.

 

[Mad Missouri]

What's your source for that? If you mean the 1944 preproduction used by the 1st Byelorussian Front, or its use in the June 22nd offensive, it's still not a STANDARD-issue combat arm. And even then, outside of the tangential Type 63 Chinese rifle (which wasn't a pure SKS model), I don't recall any full-auto conversions successfully being fielded by any army. Now the Russian Tokarev rifle was issued to a decent amount in WWII, and Simonov's AVS-36 could do full-auto, but the latter was apparently withdrawn from service pretty fast after issues in Finland were discovered (such as the action being frozen solid due to excessive packing grease being unwiped). AFAIK there's nothing referring to combat use of the SKS aside from field testing under "combat conditions" outside some Guns and Ammo Surplus Firearms issue. Make of that what you will.

I believe I read it on a Russian weapons history website (world.guns.ru?) Google it if you would like. I have also read of Canandians claiming to have seen 1945 marked guns, which is odd if the Soviets didn't adopt it until 1949. And finally there is a claim (which I've never seen) of a photo of a Soviet soldier holding what appears to be an SKS while standing among the ruins of Berlin.

As to whether or not someone made a select fire version of the SKS is something I don't know. I was only addressing the possibility there might have been test models of the SKS used in WW2.

 

[Kome]

Also for what its worth, i believe China did in fact retool their SKS rifles to have selective (ie automatic) fire. Not sure how thats possible, but it might be what he has.

That of course isnt WW2 era.

Aha! Type 63 battle rifle. Visually identical to the SKS, except with 30 round magazine and reworked internal components for fully automatic fire. So technically not the same gun at all.