WWII: Earlier US entry

I'm looking for a POD that would result in the US declaring war on Germany or vice versa in late 1940 or early 1941. I have an idea that involves De Valera offering them the use of the Treaty Ports, but can't make that work as a POD on its own :p
 

Flubber

Banned
I have an idea that involves De Valera offering them the use of the Treaty Ports, but can't make that work as a POD on its own :p


George de Valero would have rather eaten his own children than allow any use of the Treaty Ports.
 
One PoD I've looked at is a German attack on the USN ships supporting the US occupation of Iceland in 1941. The US sent a brigade of Marines and assorted navy personnel to replace the British garrison there. Suspose Hitler decides to 'teach the Americans a lesson' and directs a submarine attack on the US ships transporting the USN/Marines. Such a overt attack with a couple of US flagged ships torpedoed would move things a lot closer to war.

Similarly more fights between the USN and the German submarines in the Atlantic. Most folks here have heard of the sinking of the USS Ruben James. If any of the many other US/Uboat encounters had resulted in one side or the other sunk it moves things along.

A German effort to sabotage some of the material aid being prepared in the US for Britain would aggravate the situation. Re: the Black Tom island depot in WWI.

I have only scratched the surface here.
 
Assuming that happens before Germanys attack on the SU, it might actually prolong the war for some time. in 1941 the US was NOT prepared to wage war - OTL it took them almost a year until the allies could make Operation Torch. TTL the Germans (and Italians) might have enough resources to (at least) push the Allies out of Italy - If and When they attack. If teh Luftwaffe is able to transfer more planes to teh Med theater the result in Africa might also differ signuificantly.

I doubt that the SU will attack Germany soon, I rather think it will sit out the war between capitalists and only make minor moves in getting more land (maybe even siduing with japan an using/helping the Communist Chinese ;))
 
Well, let a German submarine sink an US warship, just like Reuben James. But far earlier and in front of a news detail that filmed the whole event. And let a German spy scandal erupt inside the US during 1940 - maybe the Duquesne Spy Ring is revealed far earlier than IOTL.

Thereby the americans can see their warship being sunk by Germans, their sailors being killed by Germans and realizint that the same Germans already having big spy networks within US borders.

I doubt that this alone was enough for a declaration of war, but add another submarine sinking of a US warship and we have a repeat of Lusitania, unrestricted submarine warfare and the Zimmerman telegram.
 
There is also the incident where a U-boat was stalking USS Texas sometime in 1941. The unprovoked sinking of a US battleship could be enough for a declaration of war on Germany.

The US wouldn't be ready to commit ground forces until sometime in 1942. I think the navy could take action sooner. I'm thinking of the Atlantic Fleet operating with the Royal Navy to fight the Axis for control of the western Med. Carriers Yorktown, Wasp, and Ranger, and battleships New Mexico, Mississippi, and Idaho are available for the heavy hitting.
 
George de Valero would have rather eaten his own children than allow any use of the Treaty Ports.

Yes, but he was in a sticky situation. It was generally believed that the Germans might invade Eire (the IRA were doing all they could to make it so) and the Defense Force would not be able to resist on their own for more than a couple of weeks. A plan was drawn up for the intervention of the British Army in that case and Churchill, among others, was keen to see it put into action proactively. Chamberlain's comment was "Good God, haven't we enough trouble already?"

Sufficient troops to deter invasion were not in place in Northern Ireland until Spring 1941, and they were largely replaced by Americans during 1942. These were equally hostile. To Irish neutrality; when FDR heard of the fear they might be used to attack the South, he responded he 'only wished he could'.

So in a situation where the USA might become actively involved earlier it would be in the interest of Eire to suggest that while they could not for obvious historical reasons agree to British forces, there are these perfectly good ports that could be used by fellow neutrals to ensure the "safety of trade" and if that led to trouble from the Continent.... ;)
 
What about a contrived plot to blow up the whitehouse by Nazis ? more subs in conflict with us ships raises the tension but not enough, nazis kidnap bob hope ? can the USA push japan into war earlier ? earlier oil embargo.
loads of TV programmes makin fun of Hirohito :p
Some sort of revealed secret Nazi plan to attack USA if Japan attacks ?

If USA does get into the war by say dec1940 i think Hitler will be even more desperate to finish off Russia before Americas weight can be bought to bear.
 

Flubber

Banned
Yes, but he was in a sticky situation.

Of his own devising.

So in a situation where the USA might become actively involved earlier it would be in the interest of Eire to suggest that while they could not for obvious historical reasons agree to British forces, there are these perfectly good ports that could be used by fellow neutrals to ensure the "safety of trade" and if that led to trouble from the Continent.... ;)

In the previous paragraph you mention how US forces in Ulster were equally hostile to Ireland and in the very next paragraph you suggest it would be in the best interests of Ireland to allow the US to use the Treaty Ports. Huh?

Then, you have the US involved in the war earlier and Ireland allowing the ports to be used by the US as a fellow neutral. Double huh?

Leaving aside the illogical explanations of your idea, any chance of any of this happening requires the bastard son of the Cuban Juan Vivion de Valero not to be the de facto dictator of Ireland. As long as "Eamon" is in control, his overwhelming spite towards the nation of his birth and his near psychotic need to prove himself as a half Cuban and wholly American bastard to be more Irish than the real Irish mean that no one is getting anywhere near the Treaty Ports.

Germany could invade and "Eamon" could be on his knees with a Gestapo Luger pressed against his skull and the SOB would still be nattering on about Irish neutrality and sovereignty.

"Eamon" has to go, one way or another.
 
Of his own devising.



In the previous paragraph you mention how US forces in Ulster were equally hostile to Ireland and in the very next paragraph you suggest it would be in the best interests of Ireland to allow the US to use the Treaty Ports. Huh?

Then, you have the US involved in the war earlier and Ireland allowing the ports to be used by the US as a fellow neutral. Double huh?

Leaving aside the illogical explanations of your idea, any chance of any of this happening requires the bastard son of the Cuban Juan Vivion de Valero not to be the de facto dictator of Ireland. As long as "Eamon" is in control, his overwhelming spite towards the nation of his birth and his near psychotic need to prove himself as a half Cuban and wholly American bastard to be more Irish than the real Irish mean that no one is getting anywhere near the Treaty Ports.

Germany could invade and "Eamon" could be on his knees with a Gestapo Luger pressed against his skull and the SOB would still be nattering on about Irish neutrality and sovereignty.

"Eamon" has to go, one way or another.

Disagree with his policies but he had elections even during the war, a dictator he wasn't.

As for Ireland in WW2 the Treaty Ports were of limited value, you would have to have Ireland give up land for more bases (prime example Cobh had 3 Pre WW1 forts, that's it even when the RN was based there up till '38. All the support areas (ie the Basin and Graving dock were Irish Free State free and clear from 1922).

As to Ireland's position we were plenty in favour of the UK, with shared intel, preparations for an RAF base in case of UK invasion, etc
 
You could have Hitler offer Texas back to Mexico.:p

The Iceland option IMO is unlikely; it offers no clear benefit to Germany.

The Greer option requires Congress to take greater umbrage, which seems unlikely.

It appears the best way is a stronger China Lobby & earlier intervention against Japan, which offers Germany an opportunity.
 
Top