OK, during WWII, the biggest mass surrender of US forces in ETO was during the battle of the Bulg,e with the capture of 2 whole regts of the green 106th GOLDEN LIONS Inf Div at Schonberg on 18 Dec 1944, while in PTO 70,000-odd American & Filipino personnel surrendered at Bataan in April 1942. Now, what other battles or campaigns could've led to equal or larger mass capitulations by US forces in both theatres during WWII ?
WWII challenge: greater US mass surrenders
- Thread starter Melvin Loh
- Start date
BlairWitch749
Banned
Anzio could have very easily seen the surrender of the equivalent of 2 us divisions had the Germans committed more aircraft and been more willing to attack at night
Kasserine if Rommel was given complete control of the theater he could have forced the surrender of the first armored division by pinning them against the western dorsal mountains.
DDAY on Omaha beach. If the germans were even able to get a small armored battle group within gun range of the beach they could have forced some fair sized surrenders
Kasserine if Rommel was given complete control of the theater he could have forced the surrender of the first armored division by pinning them against the western dorsal mountains.
DDAY on Omaha beach. If the germans were even able to get a small armored battle group within gun range of the beach they could have forced some fair sized surrenders
Not really.
If an armored force closed on the beachhead the Allies had several battleships, not to mention a few hundred fighter bombers on call to deal with them. The greatest danger was a large attack on one of the landing forces, a small one, especially at Omaha would have chopped to bits.
BlairWitch749
Banned
it would have to have been prepositioned and possibly dug in. if they had a battle group in place before the destroyers moved in close to provide the most necessary fire support (quite delayed in otl) the germans could have chopped up the landed battalions (they inflicted enough carnage at omaha anyway) the sight of armor might bring out some surrenders even if it was only a company's worth
thx for your contributions guys- re the mass capitulations on Omaha Beach on D-Day due to German armour closer to the landing area- that scenario is actually desribced in detail by Peter Tsouras in DISASTER AT D-DAY, when the BIG RED ONE are hit hard by 12th SS HITLER JUGEND & the remnants forced to surrender, while the OMAHA lodgment is resultingly abandoned by the Americans.
What about the 101st Airborne and attached forces (IIRC CCB of 10th Armored) at Bastogne? That would have been a significant surrender in terms of both numbers and quality of the units involved.
Also, if we are speaking hypothetically, I can easily envision massive US/UK surrenders had the US succeeded in forcing a Second Front in 1942, without the benefit of their experience in North Africa, Sicily, and Italy, as well as greater numbers available by 1944.
Wyragen-TXRG4P
Banned
Have Germany have a war with the soviet-union that begins with considerable difficulties, forcing Hitler to go on a full war economy since the beginning. War with the US still starts.
Germany somewhat winning in the east (securing ostland, belarus, ukrainen and caucasus) as the US invades France or Spain(with little fighting experience from north africa, since Germany was sending all forces east).
German armies turn east and the yanks believes they can contain them, the resulting campaigne is extremely brutal (several Kursk-sized battles) and prooves even more disastrous for the US arm than operation Barbarossa for the Red Army in OTL.
Germany somewhat winning in the east (securing ostland, belarus, ukrainen and caucasus) as the US invades France or Spain(with little fighting experience from north africa, since Germany was sending all forces east).
German armies turn east and the yanks believes they can contain them, the resulting campaigne is extremely brutal (several Kursk-sized battles) and prooves even more disastrous for the US arm than operation Barbarossa for the Red Army in OTL.
Markus
Banned
The portrayal of that siege in a popular tv show has been greatly exaggerated.
The defenders had the 101st, ten artillery battalions -I´m not sure if it was ten total or ten additional- a tank and a tank destroyer battalion, plus several thousand stragglers. As a result the besieged were more powerful than the besiegers. The 2nd Panzer was at 80% strength when the offensive began, the Pz.Lehr at 60% for manpower, 40% for tanks and the 26th VG was short one of its three infantry regiments. On top of that all suffered casualties before reaching Bastogne. And last but least the siege lasted a mere five days and after one or two days the weather cleared, permitting air support and supply drops.
I'm aware of that, but given the right conditions, such as, say, a freak bomb kills McAuliffe, throwing the command structure into disarray, a few more days of bad weather, a German spoiling attack against 3rd Army preventing Patton's relief operation, or any number of other factors, this could have turned into the biggest mass surrender of the war.
Not saying it's likely, just that given the right POD, it seems as if it would be possible.
Not saying it's likely, just that given the right POD, it seems as if it would be possible.
BlairWitch749
Banned
that could have easily cost the whole division because German armor blocked the salerno landing from going anywere useful for quite a while. rommel had a panzer grenadier division in and around rome that had 43 assault guns. lightly armed paratroopers being so far from support would have been cut off and destroyed no matter how much help they got from the locals
IMO, most of the suggestions here aren't really all that much of a mass surrender; by World War II standards having a couple divisions surrender is a minor setback. That's really nothing compared to the sorts of mass surrenders seen on the Eastern Front or during the German invasion of France, where major battles produced surrender figures in the hundreds of thousands and operations could get well past the million mark in terms of prisoners captured. By comparison to those kinds of losses, losing a division is a pinprick.
Of course, IOTL by the time the US has enough forces committed for surrender on such a scale to even be possible the Germans are in no position to defeat the US that badly.
Of course, IOTL by the time the US has enough forces committed for surrender on such a scale to even be possible the Germans are in no position to defeat the US that badly.
Bill Cameron
Banned
The Kiat,
No.
As Kurita himself pointed out, Japan launched it's counter attack far too late. The preliminary landings had taken place on the 17th, the main force was ashore by the 20th, and by the 24th when Kurita's force finally arrived off Samar the beachhead was dozens of miles deep and broad.
Even if Kurita had entered the gulf, shot up the cargo ships, and bombarded the supply dumps, the US troops ashore would have simply suspended offensive operations and dug in until more supplies were landed. Kurita could not stay in the gulf or off Samar for days to interdict resupply either.
With Halsey steaming down from the north and Oldendorf steaming up from the south, the Center Force was in grave danger. Thanks to Ozawa, Kurita knew roughly where Halsey was. He could deduce the presence of Oldendorf thanks to the non-appearance of the Southern Force. Many suggest, and plausibly to my mind, that Kurita withdrew when he did because of his fears of being caught in this pincer movement.
Bill
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It very well could have resulted in massive casualties on the part of the US. Had Admiral Kurita continued his attack, the landing force(which was a large portion of all US troop transports in the whole threater) would've been annihilated, and certainly the US army there would've been subject to a massive bombardment for a few hours.
I don't think this would lead to a surrender for two reasons. One, Kurita can't stay there long enough to force the issue, there are lots more US ships around, and two, Bataan was example enough of what happens when you surrender to Japan during this war.
Best case scenario for Japan is this stalls the whole invasion into something of a stalemate. Certainly Halsey, who was heavily critized OTL for going after Ozawa, would probably get sacked in this scenario.
Bill Cameron
Banned
Lothaw,
Sorry, but no.
As I already wrote, by the 24th the beachhead was nearly 15 miles deep and nearly 30 miles broad. There is just too much acreage for the IJN to bombard and far too little time in which to do it.
Let's see... Okay... Here's a map that should get the idea across. It's Wiki but it pretty much matches the maps in my Morrison volume. That should give you some idea of the size of the area occupied by the landing force by October 24th.
Besides, if days and weeks of aerial and gun bombardment didn't "annihilate" the Japanese defenders on the many Pacific islands the US invaded, why should a few hours somehow do the job on Leyte?
Bill