WWII AHC: IJN Battleships clash with US Battleships

[Clibanarius]

Your challenge, should you should to accept it, is to create a non-ASB situation where US Battleships clash with IJN Battleships during the Pacific War.

EDIT: And I mean a large scale clash between most if not all of the IJN BB's and most if not of the US BB's

 

[Comablack]

The Slot 1942 oh wait that actually happened

 

[Matt Wiser]

No need: it happened on two occasions:

1) Second Guadalcanal (14-15 Nov 43): U.S.S. Washington and U.S.S. South Dakota vs. HIJMS Kirishima. South Dakota damaged by 14" and 6" from Kirishima, plus 8" from accompanying cruisers. Washington put at least nine 16" and forty 5" shells into Kirishima, which was abandoned and scuttled.

2) Surigao Strait (24-25 Oct 44): HIJMS Fuso and HIJMS Yamashiro faced the battle line of the U.S. Seventh Fleet: U.S.S. Mississippi, Maryland, California, Tennessee, West Virginia, and Pennsylvania. Both Japanese battleships, and their escorting cruiser and destroyers, were shot to pieces in a battle so one-sided that Pennsylvania never got to fire. Fuso sunk by a combination of destroyer torpedoes and battleship/cruiser gunfire. Yamashiro sunk by battleship gunfire and two destroyer torpedoes. U.S. losses: one destroyer damaged. Only one Japanese destroyer escaped. Four DDs and one heavy cruiser were also sunk.

 

[Darksoul]

I don't think either of those count. The Slot was just a couple BBs on each side and Surigao Strait was absurdedly one-sided. I think the most impressive and most plausible action would happen if Halsey didn't take the bait at Leyte Gulf and ran into Kurita (somehow). That gives everyone the Iowa-on-Yamato action they've been dreaming of.

 

[imperialaquila]

Maybe an earlier Pacific War, perhaps over the Panay bombing? That would mean less carriers and carrier aircraft on all sides, so the battleships would be able to clash without interference.

 

[Know Nothing]

Alternate battles around Guadalcanal where both sides' carriers are knocked out of action; with the only remaining capital ships as battleships. North Carolina, South Dakota and Washington are in theatre for the Americans.

 

[Matt Wiser]

The only other way was for Halsey to either heed the calls for TF 34 to go south when it was requested, or kept them at San Bernadino Strait. If he had, that's Iowa, New Jersey, Massachussetts, South Dakota, Washington, and Alabama against Yamato, Haruna, Kongo, and Nagato. When he did send TF 34 south, all they found was a straggling destroyer-the big ships having escaped. Keep in mind that Musashi had been sunk the previous day by air attack (19 bombs and 18 torpedoes).

 

[jayel]

The only other way was for Halsey to either heed the calls for TF 34 to go south when it was requested, or kept them at San Bernadino Strait. If he had, that's Iowa, New Jersey, Massachussetts, South Dakota, Washington, and Alabama against Yamato, Haruna, Kongo, and Nagato. When he did send TF 34 south, all they found was a straggling destroyer-the big ships having escaped. Keep in mind that Musashi had been sunk the previous day by air attack (19 bombs and 18 torpedoes).

by October 1944 the USN had their radar working, would have been a turkey shoot

 

[Matt Wiser]

Actually, better everything: Radar fire control, guns with a faster rate of fire than the Japanese-either 14", 16" or 18" (Nagato had 16", btw), and the American ships are faster and more manuverable than the Japanese. And the 16" on the USN ships had more penetrating power than the Japanese 18". As Samuel Eliot Morison (the USN's official historian of WW II) said, "What a brawl that would have been."

 

[CalBear]

I don't think either of those count. The Slot was just a couple BBs on each side and Surigao Strait was absurdedly one-sided. I think the most impressive and most plausible action would happen if Halsey didn't take the bait at Leyte Gulf and ran into Kurita (somehow). That gives everyone the Iowa-on-Yamato action they've been dreaming of.

Very true. Everyone want to see that but...

How many BB did think the Japanese HAVE?

To be complete they had:

4 Kongo class (which, BTW were actually 14" gun battlecruisers with conning tower armor that the USN 5"/38 AP was able to defeat no matter what the IJN told the Emperor). Two of these were sunk before the first Iowa class ship joinded the Pacific Fleet (USS New Jersey on 22, January 1944)

2 Fuso class with 14" guns These ships were of such dubious value that on November of 1942, while the battle for Guadalcanal was still very much in doubt, the Fuso was detached from the fleet to serve as a training ship at Etajima (from whence she was recalled after the loss of Hiei & Kirishima in The Slot)

2 Ise class with 14" guns (both of which were out of the war as BB by August of 1942 while they were coverted to "half carriers")

2 Nagato class 16" guns (one of which, the Mutsu blew itself to flinders in June of 1943)

and of course

2 Yamato class 18.1" guns. Keep in mind that the Musashi didn't reach the fleet until 11 February 1943.

The IJN never had more than SEVEN true Battleships available at any point of the war, and even this number is more in theory than in practice since there was usually at least one ship in the yard for overhaul.

Yamato, as an example, was in drydock or alongside from 5/8/43 through 7/17/43 for regularly scheduled work and was out of action again from 12/25/43 through 2/3/44 to repair damage from a torpedo hit, back into the yard on 2/25/44 until returning to service 4/17/44. That is close to 25 weeks in the yard in less than a year.

For that matter, by the time Musashi reached Truk, the IJN had lost two BB to carrier conversion and two Kongo class ships had been sunk at Guadalcanal and Mutsu had her fatal accident while Yamato was in the yard.


By the time the Iowas arrived the entire IJN had six BB and two BC (the two Ise hybrids were useless as both surface ships and as carriers) to face four Iowas, four South Dakotas, two North Carolinas, and 8 -10 old BB (most which were newer than the surviving Kongos & both Fusos)

Best the IJN could hope for was being outnumbered 3-1.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Other than 2nd Guadalcanal and Surigao Strait, the only other possiblity is Halsey sending TF 34 south when originally requested, or keeping it to guard San Bernadino Strait. Had they gone south, the fast battleships would certainly have caught Center Force on its retreat, and had a field day.

 

[HMS Warspite]

Slightly more important would be why the IJN would field the fuelthirsty battlewagons, while it could also rely on the more fuelefficient lighter forces of mainly aircraft, DD's and submarines. Battleships of the IJN were all old, save the two Yamato's, but all were a burden on the limmited fuelsupply available, so no battleship vs battleship largescale battle could be fought logically, unless nothing else was available.

In the OTL the main reason why the IJN battlefleet was inactive most of her time was fuel. Untill the aircraft carriers losses and losses in navalaviation had severely reduced the firepower of the fleet, the battelshipforce was again substituted to its former glory in a time when large surfaceships were already obsolete, given the enormeous USN naval airpower in the Pacific.

 

[Gridley]

BB on BB action can be found here:

https://www.alternatehistory.com/discussion/showthread.php?t=182778

 

[zoomar]

EDIT: And I mean a large scale clash between most if not all of the IJN BB's and most if not of the US BB's

In which case, you are not talking about a "battle", but a "slaughter", since the USN outnumbered the IJN in battleships between 2:1 and 3:1, and unit for unit, the US ships were better.

The only possibility for a remotely equal fight involving more than 1-2 ships would be if the Japanese attempted some sort of strategy to draw out and defeat a small element of the US battleship force, similar to what the Germans attempted at Jutland. Given the woeful inferiority of Japanese intelligence, coupled with the fact that battleships tended to sail within carrier-centered task forces, not as a battleline, it's hard to imagine the Japanese managing this effectively without the US making a raft of strategic and tactical mistakes (although one might count on Halsey to come close), plus why would they, since by that time BBs no longer had the value they once had.

 

[strangeland]

by October 1944 the USN had their radar working, would have been a turkey shoot

Remember also that the U.S. would have had air support from the Taffy Squadrons, and that Haruna and Kongo were actually battlecruisers, not battleships. Haruna, Kongo, Nagato, and Yamato would have all been sunk; the only question is if Yamato could have taken one of the older American battlewagons down with it (probably not).

 

[mattep74]

The only other way was for Halsey to either heed the calls for TF 34 to go south when it was requested, or kept them at San Bernadino Strait. If he had, that's Iowa, New Jersey, Massachussetts, South Dakota, Washington, and Alabama against Yamato, Haruna, Kongo, and Nagato. When he did send TF 34 south, all they found was a straggling destroyer-the big ships having escaped. Keep in mind that Musashi had been sunk the previous day by air attack (19 bombs and 18 torpedoes).

He also had a few carriers with him, with planes that could sink other ships unlike the poor planes onboard Taffy.

Would Halsey even allow them to come close without sinking them all?

How about the Japanese sends every ship they have at the landings on Saipan?

 

[T3h_shammy]

I don't think either of those count. The Slot was just a couple BBs on each side and Surigao Strait was absurdedly one-sided. I think the most impressive and most plausible action would happen if Halsey didn't take the bait at Leyte Gulf and ran into Kurita (somehow). That gives everyone the Iowa-on-Yamato action they've been dreaming of.

So because America won they don't count? Good logic. Midway wasn't a real battle then...

 

[Joyeux]

So because America won they don't count? Good logic. Midway wasn't a real battle then...

No, they don't count within the realm of the OP.
Surigao Strait was one sided, not what the OP was searching for.

Second Guadalcanal does not count because it was one sided (as is the case of both instances);

Your challenge, should you should to accept it, is to create a non-ASB situation where US Battleships clash with IJN Battleships during the Pacific War.

EDIT: And I mean a large scale clash between most if not all of the IJN BB's and most if not of the US BB's

See underlined part.

Good interpretation skills by the way.

 

[Matt Wiser]

Halsey would've gone after Ozawa's decoy carrier force with his carriers and their cruiser/destroyer escorts, and sent VADM Willis A. Lee with his TF 34 (fast battleships and escorts) south. TF 34 vs. Center Force would've been a brawl-and not many Japanese would've gotten away from that. The main reason Halsey didn't send TF 34 south was that he was so fixated on the carriers that nothing else (to him) mattered.

 

[Yankflyboy]

How about the Japanese sends every ship they have at the landings on Saipan?

There's no way they'd risk it. To do that would critically weaken their defenses across the board.

Of course, if they did do that, it'd force the US Navy to bring in most of its heavy units as well...wait, wasn't that what the Japanese wanted throughout most of the first half of the war?

Oops. I seem to have defeated my own argument - maybe Saipan does make sense.