WWII. A quicker end?

Simple question. How would the war have proceeded if Germany had been hit with nuclear weapons instead of Japan?

Please bear in mind the following factors.
The logistics and possibility of transporting the necessary materials to the UK and then ensuring that the bombers themselves get to Germany.

The risk to Allied troops

The damage to the environment

Civilian casualties

Public opinion

The reaction of the other axis powers
 
What’s the POD, a sooner finish to Project Manhattan with a successful bomb that can be dropped on a German city? If it’s dropped on a German city before even attempted in Japan...that’s right in everyone’s backyard and the reaction from the Allies is going to be a massive shitstorm. People are going to be super fucking shy about using it anywhere, including Japan, which means Downfall is probably a go if standard fire-bombing doesn’t convince the Japanese yo surrender in a timely fashion (although in all likelihood it does, and Japan is temporarily without a major city beyond Tokyo and Kyoto.)

Remember, Japan was a bunch of islands out in Asia, and the general attitude toward the Japanese was a lot less “we must destroy this evil ideology and get the nation back on track” and more “seriously, fuck those guys” toward Japan. The Allies could afford a bit more destruction in the Pacific theater.
 
What’s the POD, a sooner finish to Project Manhattan with a successful bomb that can be dropped on a German city? If it’s dropped on a German city before even attempted in Japan...that’s right in everyone’s backyard and the reaction from the Allies is going to be a massive shitstorm. People are going to be super fucking shy about using it anywhere, including Japan, which means Downfall is probably a go if standard fire-bombing doesn’t convince the Japanese yo surrender in a timely fashion (although in all likelihood it does, and Japan is temporarily without a major city beyond Tokyo and Kyoto.)

Remember, Japan was a bunch of islands out in Asia, and the general attitude toward the Japanese was a lot less “we must destroy this evil ideology and get the nation back on track” and more “seriously, fuck those guys” toward Japan. The Allies could afford a bit more destruction in the Pacific theater.

The POD is a quicker finish to project manhattan. I agree a shitstorm would be the first result.
 
If it was used on a German city and this resulted in a German capitulation then we might possibly see even the Japanese Blink and seek terms knowing that they are next.

As it was they had pretty much agreed to end the war after the first bomb but were a bit slow in telling anyone before the 2nd bomb.
 
they had pretty much agreed to end the war after the first bomb but were a bit slow in telling anyone before the 2nd bomb.
They'd figured it out in April, but couldn't get Truman (& especially Byrnes, who wanted to scare the Sovs with the Bomb) to agree to let Japan keep the Emperor (which was the one thing they really wanted). And when Truman refused to tell them, straight out, that was okay (per the Atlantic Charter, which FDR, & so the U.S., had agreed to), Japan responded to his demand with a mokusatsu ("No comment"), which Truman used as an excuse.
 
They'd figured it out in April, but couldn't get Truman (& especially Byrnes, who wanted to scare the Sovs with the Bomb) to agree to let Japan keep the Emperor (which was the one thing they really wanted). And when Truman refused to tell them, straight out, that was okay (per the Atlantic Charter, which FDR, & so the U.S., had agreed to), Japan responded to his demand with a mokusatsu ("No comment"), which Truman used as an excuse.

My understanding was that they did not effectively respond as they were holding out for a more reasonable terms for ending the war through Stalin - not realizing that Stalin had already agreed to the Allied terms

There was also the fact that the 4 military leaders of the Big 6 were all for continuing the war till the bitter end - and this was 'public' knowledge - even after the Bombs and the

So while yes Truman and co were all for making an example and keeping the Russians out - its mainly 'on' Japan for not seeking terms when it was blatantly clear that they had lost before this point.

Many of their cities had already been turned to ash by massed Silver Plate , their fleet was gone and their armies comprehensively defeated on Land.

Had they surrendered before Aug 6th (i.e. agreed to the July 26th Potsdam declaration) then no Atom bomb gets dropped.

As it was it took until the 2nd bomb and the Russian invasion before the 'Big 6' really started to chew the fat (with the 4 Military leaders still wanting to fight on!) and even then it took a week in which Allied Battleships were trailing their coats along the Japanese coastline shelling things at will and the largest conventional bombing raid in history (and an attempted coup) before they accepted the Potsdam declaration (with only the Question of the Emperor not agreed to).
 
We're already bombing German cities and killing 100,000's doing so. So I don't agree that dropping the bomb on Germany is somehow going to be worse than doing so in Japan in terms of reaction, shit storms etc.

In 1945 the Atomic bomb is just a big bomb, it doesn't really have the kind of extra threat or social weight attached to Nuclear weapons later on (the operational advantages however are clear from the get go). Nagasaki and Hiroshima aren't even the worst air raids of the war in terms of destruction and loss of life
 
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I believe that if Germany had not been beaten before the bombs were ready then they would have been dropped on Germany. If they had been ready earlier then they would have been dropped there. But any shortening of the war would have been marginal at best.
 
We're already bombing German cities and killing 100,000's doing so. So I don't agree that dropping the bomb on Germany is some going to be worse than doing so in Japan in terms of reaction, shit storms etc.

Indeed - comparable damage to a nuclear attack; only major difference is number of aircraft used.

Operation Gomorrah killed 42,600 people, left 37,000 wounded and caused some one million German civilians to flee the city. The city's labour force was reduced by ten percent. Approximately 3,000 aircraft were employed, 9,000 tons of bombs were dropped and over 250,000 homes and houses were destroyed.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bombing_of_Hamburg_in_World_War_II
 
A larger Operation Judgement (and by implication Op MB8) with Fekkin bells on - 3 RN carriers launch a far larger strike agaisnt the Italian fleet resulting in all BBs CC and CL along with several DDs being sunk and so badly damaged that they play no further part in the war

Malta is then reinforced (including Spitfires) - resutling in far worse logsitics for the Axis forces in North Africa and the Island becomes unassailable by April 41

The Australian Government and the New Zealand Government get wind of the planned intervention in Greece and delay giving permission for their forces to be used (OTL they were kept in the dark)

Although units are sent to Crete to free up the Greek Garrison for service on the mainland

This has several implications

Stronger Commonwealth forces in North Africa

Weaker Axis forces in North Africa

Operation Sonnenblume is far less likely to result in an Axis victory and more likely to result in a continued stalemate as the Commonwealth forces increase in strength

Operation Mercury is far less likely to be attempted and if it was far less likely to be a success

OTL during the Greek, Crete and Sonnonblume campaigns the British lost about a division and a half of troops and over 5 divisions worth of heavy equipment and transport - here they do not

Post the Japanese occupation of French Indo China - the Australian and New Zealand Governments demand the return of their troops and the 2nd Australian Expeditionary force returns to Australia by August 41 - with the 6th and 9th AIDs sent to reinforce the 8th AID in Malaya

The British replace them with forces from the UK

The British having done far better in North and East Africa are able to send a Brigades worth of older armour to allow the Australians to form their 1st Armour Division - intended only for training the unit is instead stood up in Singapore

The RAAF and RNZAF are reinforced by about 3 Squadrons of Bombers, 5 of fighters and an additional Recce Squadron again due to a freeing up of RAF fighter command Spitfire Squadrons from the UK to Malta and North Africa freeing up Hurricane and P40 Squadrons

The Navy largely spared the 'Verdun of the Med' is able to send stronger forces to the region

This results in the Japanese plan to invade Malaya to be changed with one of the Divisions and transport intended for the Phillipines being added to the Malaya force instead

This all result in a faster victory in North Africa, Stalemate in both Malaya and the Phillipines well into 42 with far heavier losses for the Japanese with no Burma Campaign and no subsequant invasion of the DEI the wheels start to come off the Japanese war machine far earlier and their gambling of their remaining Oil reserves fails.
 
A larger Operation Judgement (and by implication Op MB8) with Fekkin bells on - 3 RN carriers
I like it. I do wonder where the CVs are coming from; IIRC, 2 was all there were at hand.
The Australian Government and the New Zealand Government get wind of the planned intervention in Greece and delay giving permission for their forces to be used (OTL they were kept in the dark)

Although units are sent to Crete to free up the Greek Garrison for service on the mainland
Better still, Winston actually listens to the damn Greek government telling him not to f*cking send anybody.:mad::mad::rolleyes:
This has several implications
Defeat of Italy in North Africa before rescued by DAK.

Fall of Mussolini in 1942?

Winston calling for invasion of Europe through Albania.:rolleyes: (Hopefully, Brooke hitting him with a riding crop til he shuts up about it.:openedeyewink: ) Winston agreeing to settle for invading Italy. (Hopefully, Brooke hitting him with a riding crop til he shuts up about that, too.:openedeyewink: )

Operation Bolero goes ahead with a five-division front in May 1942. (With any luck, Monty drowns crossing the Channel.:rolleyes: :openedeyewink: )

MacArthur has a stroke when he hears Patton has entered Berlin, while he's retreating to Bataan.:openedeyewink: Wainwright takes over & is called back to Oz. (This buggers the U.S. Sub Force just as OTL.:mad: )

I like most of the rest of your proposal (not least because I'm having trouble ATM keeping the timing straight :oops: ).
 
You want a quicker end to WW2? This is really simple.

Make Stalin prepared for the 1941 invasion.

He wasn't prepared at all for Barbarossa. If you make him prepared for that and make his army actually competent (maybe making the purge more lenient on the military), the war could be over by maybe '43 or '44.
 
You want a quicker end to WW2? This is really simple.

Make Stalin prepared for the 1941 invasion.

He wasn't prepared at all for Barbarossa. If you make him prepared for that and make his army actually competent (maybe making the purge more lenient on the military), the war could be over by maybe '43 or '44.
Stalin's preparation (or lack thereof) has little to do with the Red Army's preparation. In the interwar period for example, the US Navy spent much of its time preparing for a war with the UK while the Federal Government obviously had no intention on doing such a thing. Indeed, the Red Army was well on its way to preparing for a German invasion. The chaos of the opening months of Barbarossa was due to the fact that existing Soviet doctrine emphasized a "best defense is a good offense" approach - thus positioning their forces directly on the border. There was also the fact that most Red Army formations lacked radios. The Great Purge or Stalin's personal views wouldn't have changed that.
 
I like it. I do wonder where the CVs are coming from; IIRC, 2 was all there were at hand.

Well....Illustrious and Ark Royal took part in the Larger Op MB8 - My change here is to have Ark Royals airgroup take part in the actual attack rather than the diversionary raids

Eagle was withdrawn due to (IIRC) a fuel leak in her aviation gas tanks - have the op take place earlier and she is still available

So its 21+ Swordfish from Lusty, 15 odd from Eagle, and IIRC 28 from 3 Squadrons on Ark Royal - so at least 64 Swordfish

And with Skuas available to act as Flare carrier and to attack the secondary targets we can have as many of the 64 Swordfish carrying torpedoes rather than the 11 out of 21 OTL (I think that was the number)

There is either 11 or 23 Skuas on Ark Royal so plenty to act as flare carriers

Furious was being used as an Aircraft transport (55 Hurricanes to the Gold Coast on 15th November) - delay this and have her retain her full airgroup for the diversionary attacks that Ark Royal conducted OTL (Operation Crack) the attack on the Airbase at Cagliari on Sardinia as well as covering the resupply convoy to Malta

Her airgroup from what I can tell was about 20 odd Swordfish and 9 Skua

There could be some limited cross decking of Aircraft here with Ark Royal sending some Skuas to Furious and some of Furious's Swordfish to the other carriers ensuring that a maximum number of torpedo carrying aircraft can be used by the other carriers

Anyway with far more torpedoes and far more aircraft the attack sinks pretty much everything in the Outer harbour and lots in the inner harbour - effectively gelding the Italian fleet

For me while the op was successful OTL - I do not believe that the planners thought big enough and should have made a maximum effort

The British then missed a massive opportunity to effectively reinforce Malta and increase interdiction efforts in the Central Med.

Lastly Spitfire was hoarded in the UK for far too long - a Wing of Spits should have been made available for the Island (and numbers maintained) between Nov 1940 and April 41 and a Wing made available for North Africa (Which did not happen until Mid 42) ASAP

This would all have increased losses among the Italian Air Forces involved against Malta and fighting in North and East Africa and any supporting LW units.
 
Stalin's preparation (or lack thereof) has little to do with the Red Army's preparation. In the interwar period for example, the US Navy spent much of its time preparing for a war with the UK while the Federal Government obviously had no intention on doing such a thing. Indeed, the Red Army was well on its way to preparing for a German invasion. The chaos of the opening months of Barbarossa was due to the fact that existing Soviet doctrine emphasized a "best defense is a good offense" approach - thus positioning their forces directly on the border. There was also the fact that most Red Army formations lacked radios. The Great Purge or Stalin's personal views wouldn't have changed that.

Many of the Red Army's units were in their Peace time garrisons on the eve of the German invasion

TOEs were incomplete, spares and ammo had not been issued to sub units

That in my opinion would have made a big difference

Certainly it was unlikely to have stopped the invasion but it certainly would have allowed many units to fight with greater cohesion and made the blood gelt far higher for the Germans
 
I recently enjoyed reading The Berlin Project, by Gregory Benford. In this alternate history, the early development of the atom bomb is kickstarted by a private investment group.
 
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