WWI starts w/o the U.K. - Result?

I am sure the constant speeches about acquiring lands in the East from inferior Slavs by politicians in Germany didn't rise an eyebrow in Russia.

The Wilhelmine Germans had their hands full with those Poles they had acquired in the Polish Partitions. They didn't desire more of them.
The idea of acquiring land in the east became only popular when the British blockade cut Germany off from seagoing trade.
'Inferior slaves' are more a Nazi term, although some Wilhelmine Germans also worried about a final struggle between Slavs and Germans, but without 'Untermenschentum'.
 

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The Wilhelmine Germans had their hands full with those Poles they had acquired in the Polish Partitions. They didn't desire more of them.
The idea of acquiring land in the east became only popular when the British blockade cut Germany off from seagoing trade.
'Inferior slaves' are more a Nazi term, although some Wilhelmine Germans also worried about a final struggle between Slavs and Germans, but without 'Untermenschentum'.
The Nazis did not pull that stuff out of thin air

The expansion to the east idea has being part of the German psyche for a thousand years, far before the second Reich.

It actually doesn't even matter that much, because the German General staff were eager to defeat Russia for the fear that it was going to industrialize and grow too strong. Also the Germans were going for European hegemony, which was a threat to Russia no matter what.
 
The Wilhelmine Germans had their hands full with those Poles they had acquired in the Polish Partitions. They didn't desire more of them.
Who is saying they desired Poles? They desired land, not Poles.
in 1887, the later Imperial Chancellor, von Bülow, had revealingly expressed the hope that a future conflict would allow 'the Poles to be evicted en masse from the Polish parts of the country'
The German Empire, 1871-1918 Hans Ulrich Wehler

The idea of acquiring land in the east became only popular when the British blockade cut Germany off from seagoing trade.
The idea of conquering land in the East for German land was developed at the end of XIX century by Ratzel, and based on even earlier works by German nationalist thinkers like Lagarde and Franz who developed ideas of Grossraumwirtschaft.

In his later writings de Lagarde merely expanded this programme. The countries bordering upon Germany and Austria in the east were to be Germanized. Russia was to be defeated in war and forced to cede to Germany a broad belt of
land from the Baltic to Black Sea but without the inhabitants .These lands were to be settled with German peasants, and the Jews from Poland and Galicia to be expelled to Palaistine

The Rise of Fascism F. L. Carste page 26.
This was written in 1887.

although some Wilhelmine Germans also worried about a final struggle between Slavs and Germans, but without 'Untermenschentum'.
"The Slavs were not born to rule but to serve, this they must be taught"
Kaiser Wilhelm II- 1913
from Nationalism and Ethnic Conflict Michael Edward Brown MIT Press, 2001 page 49

Die Rehobother Bastards und das Bastardierungsproblem beim Menschen that served as inspiration for Nuremberg Laws and racism of Nazis was also published in 1913 in Germany by Eugene Fischer.
Generally there can no doubt that German nationalists and conservatives viewed Slavs as inferior people to Germans.
 
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The Nazis did not pull that stuff out of thin air

The expansion to the east idea has being part of the German psyche for a thousand years, far before the second Reich.

Not sure what you mean.

There were two periods of what could loosely [1] be called "expansion eastward", one around the Tenth and Eleventh centuries, when the German kings and Dukes conquered the lands east of the Elbe, and another in the Thirteenth, when the Teutonic Knights and their allies conquered the Baltic region. That's about the last eastward expansion I'm aware of until Prussia took her share of the Polish partitions - though she took no more than Austria and a lot less than Russia - nearly 600 years later.

In the Middle Ages, German rulers spent far more time expanding (or trying to expand) southward into Italy than eastward into nothing very much. The Italians had far more that was worth stealing [2]. In the "Modern" period, they didn't do much expanding at all. It was mostly French, Swedes etc expanding at their expense.

It actually doesn't even matter that much, because the German General staff were eager to defeat Russia for the fear that it was going to industrialize and grow too strong. Also the Germans were going for European hegemony, which was a threat to Russia no matter what.

Pretty much agreed. It was a war for the balance of power, whatever slogans were cooked up to disguise the fact. A century earlier, for precisely the same reason, Britain had been with Prussia and others against an over-mighty France.

[1] "Loosely" because the reality on the ground was a lot more complicated. Thus the Slavic tribes between Elbe and Oder copped it from Polish Kings as well as German, while the Baltic peoples were on the receiving end of a real international coalition. The TKs got their first foothold in Prussia as a grant from a Polish prince, who wanted their help against the heathen native Prussians, while Konigsberg (literally "King's Town") was named in honour of another ally with the very Germanic name of Przemyl Otokar II (of Bohemia). The Swedes shared in the conquest, acquiring Finland and (temporarily) Estonia, while the Danes played a very big role, famously chopping up the wooden idol Swantewit in its pagan temple on the island of Rugen.

[2] Medieval English Kings typically spent far more time warring in France than in Scotland or Ireland, for somewhat similar reasons.
 
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There is a book published in Germany in 1895.
It's called Germania triumphans. Rückblick auf die weltgeschichtlichen Ereignisse der Jahre 1900-1915 von Einem Grösstdeutschen by author named Karl Kaerger
Basically it's a German SF book with vision of the future.
He envisions a German war with Russia, annexation of Congress Poland, Baltic States, Volhynia, Podolia, Ukraine with Crimea, and South Russia. All of this is Germanised, Germans are given leadership positions, while Jews are expelled, Slavs perform only manual labour and deprived of property rights. Only Balts are given limited autonomy.

In other words-its very similiar copy of what Nazis did written when Hitler wasn't even born.
 
In other words-its very similiar copy of what Nazis did written when Hitler wasn't even born.

Or an extrapolation of what Europeans were doing through much of the 19C - mostly, I'll admit, to non-Europeans, but not exclusively.

Leaving aside Red Indians and Tasmanians, Scottish Highlanders were being "ethnically cleansed" as late as the 1850s.

As AJP Taylor put it, when people try to predict the future, they mostly see the past.
 
I have yet to see a book or British government proposal to conquer Berlin and settle it with English people.


The bottom line though is that Nazis didn't invent much anything new. Most of their ideas were the result of German nationalism and racism already present before they appeared.
 
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Deleted member 1487

Except that the vat majority of Germans don't want to live in the East, even the proponents of said policies. Even the Nazis had very bad luck trying to get colonists East. They had to turn to ethnic German communities or very 'patriotic' groups to actually settle areas in Poland. Further East was nearly impossible to get civilians to settle. That SF book you mention was just that: Sci Fi, not reality. Its like the ultra nationalists with manifest destiny: they generally came after the army and immigrants had pacified things, but here there are much more densely settled areas to contend with. Even with all the big talk of Lebensraum by Ober Ost in WW1, the major reason areas were depopulated of Slavs was due to the Russians scorched earth policy, not the Germans forcing people out. In fact, if you read scholarly works on the subject:
http://www.amazon.com/War-Land-Eastern-Front-Occupation/dp/0521661579
the idea was only embraced de to the occupied territories being nearly depopulated by the war and the Russian army forcing people deeper into Russia, leaving large swaths of uninhabited land that the military recognized as viable for German farming, because, you know, there was a blockade on and people were starving. Outside of propaganda and extremists, most Germans had no interest in colonizing Eastern Europe.
 
The way Serbian terrorism was able to trigger a world war highlights the importance of special forces and secret operations in the world today. The A-H (or the A-H together with the other directly interested party, Russia) could have sent in the equivalent of a special forces team and killed or abducted the fanatics in Serbian military intelligence who were making the trouble, and then blown up their headquarters. Another team, the equivalent of a Mossad hunter-killer squad, could have assassinated the leaders of all known anarchist-terrorist cells in Serbia. Message sent, case closed. Unfortunately, Special Forces and intelligence covert operations units didn't exist at that time, so tens of millions of people had to die as a result of an overresponse. Appropriate calibrated responses require the tools for such a response, and no one could even conceive of such tools in 1914.
 
Except that the vat majority of Germans don't want to live in the East, even the proponents of said policies. Even the Nazis had very bad luck trying to get colonists East.
I am sure theethnically cleansed Slavs would find comfort in the fact that German population of conquered territories wouldn't be as high as expected by German state.


Outside of propaganda and extremists, most Germans had no interest in colonizing Eastern Europe.
The policy makers did, and that's what matters.

Even with all the big talk of Lebensraum by Ober Ost in WW1, the major reason areas were depopulated of Slavs was due to the Russians scorched earth policy
Considering the fact that the city of Kalisz was depopulated by German troops from 65.000 people to 5.000 in just one month or so, I don't believe Germans would have problems with their ethnic cleansing plans. The settlement of Germans in areas left empty by original population might be another matter, but without any real importance for the post-ethnic cleansing fate of victims of Kaiserreich.
 

Deleted member 1487

I am sure theethnically cleansed Slavs would find comfort in the fact that German population of conquered territories wouldn't be as high as expected by German state.
Try non-existent. Furthermore there was no widely accepted plan to do so. Several people floated extreme ideas including Ludendorff that were not sanctioned by the civilian government. Despite Wilhelm's wishy-washiness on the idea (was both pro and anti depending on his mood), even in the military there was influential opposition including General Hoffmann and Prince Leopold head of Ober Ost in 1918. Also the Socialists, the largest party in the Reichstag, were dead set against it.


The policy makers did, and that's what matters.
Certain individuals were for it, but the majority of policy makers were against the notion, even Wilhelm by the end of the war. By 1918 the plan was to set up a client state in Poland without a 'sanitized' border area that Ludendorff wanted.

Considering the fact that the city of Kalisz was depopulated by German troops from 65.000 people to 5.000 in just one month or so, I don't believe Germans would have problems with their ethnic cleansing plans. The settlement of Germans in areas left empty by original population might be another matter, but without any real importance for the post-ethnic cleansing fate of victims of Kaiserreich.
One spontaneous event initiated by a junior officer and suddenly it means policy? Did the burning of Louvain mean the colonization and ethnic cleansing of Belgium? Shit happens in war unfortuantely but it doesn't signify policy. The Russians burned a number of towns in East Prussia and Galicia, kidnapping over 100,000 German and Polish civilians as hostages and moving them into Russia. That was policy from STAVKA; did that mean Russian was going to ethnically cleanse East Prussia and Galicia? Ultimately today they did and nearly no ethic German live in East Prussia today, only Poles and Russians. Who ethnically cleansed whom?
 
. Several people floated extreme ideas including Ludendorff that were not sanctioned by the civilian government.
Not sanctioned by civilian government?

Already by early December 1914 Chancellor Bethmann Holwegg favoured ethnic cleansing and German colonization of a strip of Poland bordering Prussia, and he appears to have arrived at this idea himself.
Absolute destruction: military culture and the practices of war in Imperial Germany Isabel V. Hull
page 233

Last I saw, Chancellor was the leader of civilian government? Correct?
In fact Ludendorff even mentions that most of the ideas came from Reichs chancellery.

Were the 1347 people that signed petition demanding annexation of territories in the East(including 353 professors, 158 German teachers, 145 higher administrative officials, mayors, city council-men, 148 judges, 40 German MPs, 182 business leaders, 252 artists) part of military or civilian life?

Also the Socialists, the largest party in the Reichstag, were dead set against it.
Is that why Socialist concentrated around the newspaper Socialistische Monatshefte and Glocke didn't oppose annexations in the East and in fact encouraged annexation of Courland by Germany ?
Anyhow members of SPD were against annexations in the West, didn't oppose annexations in the East.

Certain individuals were for it, but the majority of policy makers were against the notion
Actually in the only full detailed study on the subject by Geiss he mentions clearly that majority of policy makers were for it.

By 1918 the plan was to set up a client state in Poland without a 'sanitized' border area that Ludendorff wanted.
It's the first time I heard this amazing information. According to all available knowledge, Germans demanded the border area up to 19th September 1918 when last demand of such nature was issued. That is barely less than a month before they surrendered.

One spontaneous event initiated by a junior officer and suddenly it means policy?
No it just means that ethnic cleansing would be quite efficient if Germans would win and enact their war plans. And I still struggle to understand why ethnically cleansed population would care if 100.000 rather than 200.000 Germans would move into their lands?

The Russians burned a number of towns in East Prussia and Galicia, kidnapping over 100,000 German and Polish civilians as hostages and moving them into Russia. That was policy from STAVKA
And how this(if true) changes German ethnic cleansing plans in WW1?
did that mean Russian was going to ethnically cleanse East Prussia and Galicia?
I am unaware of any Russian Empire's ethnic cleansing plans in WW1.
The ethnic cleansing plans of Kaiserreich on the other hand are very well known,sourced by numerous historians and their publications.
 
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