I would assume not, if we are talking about a drawn peace, since neither side would willingly acknowledge defeat by paying an indemnity to the otheer.
WWI stalemate
- Thread starter My Username is Inigo Montoya
- Start date
I would assume not, if we are talking about a drawn peace, since neither side would willingly acknowledge defeat by paying an indemnity to the otheer.
Giysqun Wilde
Banned
Still, would they be able to agree on who is responsible for the debts, or would each side have to compensate their own side for damages done in their own territory? How would any of this effect American loans and their stability, while we are at it.
Everyone would have to pay their own debts/expenses, unless you get something like Germany agreeing to pay some reparations in exchange for getting some of its colonies back.
Giysqun Wilde
Banned
Which borders would parties at the negotiations or in the public suggest be dimilitarized, at least for a few dozen kilometers?
Giysqun Wilde
Banned
I'm thinking more along the lines of the private citizens who had their land dug up and sowed with mines.
The scenario is about a stalemate, not about a milder peace after an Entente victory.
I'd love to see a map for this because id love to make a map game out of this scenario. Can someone please make one.
Giysqun Wilde
Banned
I'd love to see a map for this because id love to make a map game out of this scenario. Can someone please make one.
A game with everyone giving up? That actually could be quite interesting, trying to keep down those who want to keep the war gonig and to stop any incidents that would cause things to flair up more.
That is quite a stalemate. Notice that Germany is the big winner, they get Eastern Europe. (they lose their colonies that weren't really profitable in the first place, also Germany was starving due to the North Sea blockade anyways). The Austrians and Ottomans had pretty much collapsed anyways already. Also, Germany might as well pick up pieces unhindered when Austria collapse.
No, they hadn't collapsed in early 1918. The Entente is getting a lot of territory that's under Central Powers control here, which seem to contradict the initial scenario.
Actually the Entente will pretty much gain the German colonies and some Middle East territory. Bohemia- Moravia will most likely become German aligned, while Austria probably just will cheat in the plebicites and not lose any additional territory. And Bulgaria will both lose and gain territory. And you have probably not noticed that Germany is the winner in this scenario. They get a free hand in Eastern Europe.
Giysqun Wilde
Banned
It could have been for the best to specify when talking about Bohemia-Moravia that the German cities and borderland would have remained Austrian. I don't see how the Germans would be able to give up their colonies as collateral as possession is nine tenths of the law. Unless Von Lettow's army down there managed to swell with tribes as it headed where ever it chose. Romania for it's part had already signed a trety in real history in which they only gave up a bit of Dobruja in exchange for a chunk of Russian land, and they had been considered by many as in the Central Power axis before they joined on the Entente. How will Japan and China be effected by all of this?
Simple but brilliant. I also agree on the German terms, they are very realistic.
I am sorry, but this won't happen against an undefeated AH, except for the evacuation from Romania and perhaps Serbia. And I see no way Serbia is going to be rewarded with parts of Bosnia. Serbia is in a worse position than Italy when it comes to making claims...
To be honest, everything in the East will just be pawns to be sacrificed for the remaining Entente. They will and should be content with (re-) establishing something similar to the status quo ante when it comes to AH and the Balkans, and AH should be happy to accept.
The restructuring is an internal affair of AH and not part of the peace deal. Although I am quite sure that Karl I will try to start exactly such a process.
Nicely put.
Again, I agree with most of the assessment as being really realistic. It would be very interesting to see how in such a scenario the Whites get a lot more assistance due to unhindered German interference. I wonder if the US still intervene against the evil reds.
Oh, as so often, the Austria-Hungary must die paradigm. If Karl's reign survives 1918 and AH doesn't collapse right in the days of the armistice, then that's it. The greatest matters of incontent will be removed anyways that way, i.e. the war and hunger (which will not go away in a day, but without the blockade, with continued control over Ukraine [which didn't do wonders but was better than nothing] and demobilization, there is a perspective). I am sorry, but nationalism comes third here if Austria-Hungary leaves the war undefeated and not slated to be broken up by the Entente.
Also, the pattern of your break-up doesn't fit national tensions but a continued path to autonomy along the renewals of the Ausgleich (whose 1917 re-negotiation would have to be done). But even if Hungarian autonomy is bolstered further to the point of virtual independance, there will still be a personal union as the last bond and one could argue that Austria-Hungary never ceases to exist that way. It would be a bit like the Commonwealth.
Your scenario, though, implies a violent breaking off of Hungary. This would probably result in a Hungary not much larger than post-Trianon. Cisleithania will deny Hungary the German-speaking, Burgenland
If a turmoil of national tensions causes the complete break-up à la OTL, there is no way the Czechs and Polish would remain with the German-Austrians, same would be said about the Croats within Hungary - if they do not become part of Serbia or independant they remain loyal to the dynasty and become part of the Austrian part which would promise them more autonomy.
And how a broken off Cisleithania opts to become part of Germany when Germans are a minority within it is beyond me.
Karl will be willing enough to reform and the upset the war brought can be used to enforce the necessary reforms far easier than it would have been prior to 1914. It is not all fine and well with Austria-Hungary. But the Yugoslavia-like Civil War 85% of the participants of this website see for any scenario involving an AH post-1918... I find that one not so automatic.
Concerning the Czechs. I like them. And they were a nation already before 1918. But without the Entente sponsoring them, they won't get a completely sovereign state. Period. I will tell you why. 1848 was comparably mild in Prague when compared to the Hungarian uprising and 2000 dead in Vienna. Czech nationalists prior to 1914 and also during the war did not commit acts of violence nor rebellion. They worked in Parliament. Oh my God, they obstructed it. That would have doomed the monarchy just months after the end of war. If that is the case, the days of the USA are counted.
The institution of the CSR in 1918/19 was hardly a result of what happened within Bohemia and Moravia, but of Austrian defeat and thorough Entente preparation led by the exiled Czechs, culminating in the creation of an army.
The CSR did not resist in 1938 nor in 1939. There was very little violent resistance against German occupation when compared to.....most other parts of Europe (of course, unless the war was safely won in May 45!), even Slovakia. The Czechs protested the Warsaw Pact invasion of 1968 and created some iconic images. Errr....anybody remember what the Hungarians did in '56?
Oh, and in 1989...they decided to start demonstrations against their Communist regime after Poland, Hungary and even the East-Germans had already effectively changed camps...in Mid-November! And they weren't exactly ruled by Ceaucescu.
And you tell me that this nation's complete independance was a historical automatism?
That is not to say that the situation of the Czechs won't change over time. And they won't get Germanified either. They will get along with the Germans like the Flemish and Walloons do. Unless Austria-Hungary screws up another World War. You never know.
It would of course make perfect sense - but no. Because otherwise the Polish, even a Polish puppert, would expect them to give up at least the Prussian province of Posen. One of the reasons why the Germans obstructed Austrian ideas to pass Galicia to Poland if the latter beacme an Austrian client state and/or ended up under a Habsburg king.
yannik
Banned
The western parts of Posen (which border brandenburg) had a high density of Germans(the amount of Germans (at the Brandenburg boundary) is higher than that of Poles. ). In my POV Germany would give up the western parts of Posen because they are an integral part of the German Empire.