WWI Result without American Involvement

What Would the Outcome of WWI Have Been Without American Involvement?

  • Central Powers Victory

    Votes: 58 26.2%
  • Stalemate

    Votes: 61 27.6%
  • Allied Victory, But Much Later

    Votes: 30 13.6%
  • Allied Victory, But Slightly Later

    Votes: 61 27.6%
  • Allied Victory At Roughly The Same Time As IOTL

    Votes: 11 5.0%

  • Total voters
    221
The Italians losing their colonies to the Germans is an interesting idea.

This has got to be the most implausible supposition of all. Italy is not surrendering or negotiating a settlement as long as France and the BE are in the fight and turning the screws on the Western Front, once Turkey and thence Bulgaria have capitulated. With no surrender or negotiation..they will keep all their colonies and Austria will withdraw or be forced out entirely to the prewar boundaries. Once Bulgaria and the Ottomans are out, A-H is vulnerable in the Balkans and will have to divert troops there. There will be no more offensives in Italy.

Greece could end up playing a more active role to get bigger role in the Treaty of Sevres.
 
CP victory highly unlikely

Given the post that the US does not enter the War, then the CP fate is probably sealed, just on more ameliorable terms.

The allies will still win probably, Summer or early Fall 1919 latest, the CP will offer a conditional surrender that the Allies will accept ( No prospect of fresh American troops means that they do not have the luxury of pushing the CP too far with terms that they cannot accept, because of their own War Fatigue).

Both sides by 1917 are suffering from War Fatigue. But shortages of Agricultural and industrial War materials will no doubt make themselves manifest in the economies of the CP first because of the Wartime Blockade imposed by the Western Seapowers. Even with Brest - Litovsk those resources cannot save the CP from Civil unrest due to severe shortages in these sectors. Resources from the East will not make themselves felt in the economies of the CP until 1920 or 21 at the earliest. With Food riots and labour unrest in the cities of Germany and A-H more troops will be needed simply to maintain the peace of the Empire rather than continuing the fight against the Western Allies. Even if still occupying parts of France or Bel/Lux. The CP will evacuate at the request of the Allies if it brings peace and a chance to secure their own increasingly restive backyards.

The allies , while suffering from War fatigue do not have the associated problems with material shortages. Even if the US does not enter the War..they will still send grain and war materials and vital financial capital to finance the Western War effort. There is not likely to be any unrest in France or Italy. The problems resulting in the French military mutinies have essentially been addressed. While the French troops may have been distressed by the appalling leadership and planning of some of the military offensives...they were commited to defending France itself and ejecting the Germans from all of France. The same will hold with the Italians.


Probable results....

France obtains Alsace and Lorraine. Occupation of the Saar and moderate reparations paid by Germany to compensate for the widespread devastation in Northern France

Germany (if it hasn't been forced out) will evacuate France/Belgium and Lux. to the prewar borders. Smaller reparations to Belgium.

Germany loses its entire Overseas Empire (incl. OstAfrika) in exchange for recognition of Brest-Litovsk. Not highly palatable to the Western Allies, but there will be little they can do about it at this point. Moderate reparations to Britain.

A-H evacuates or is forced out of Italy because of increasing civil unrest and pressure on the Balkan front from the Entente. return to the prewar bondaries. Moderate reparations to Italy in compensation.

Balkan Boundaries are restored, Bosnia-Hercegovina receives its independence but a Yugoslav Kingdom is not in the cards unless A-H collapses sometime after the Peace. B-H, Serbia and Montenegro will have to settle for increasing Economic and Military co-operation instead.

Roumania only gets its gains in Bulgaria and Bessarabia (Moldavia) that it obtained OTL.

The Ottomans suffer the same fare as OTL losing their ME terr. to France and Britain, Italy and Greece. The only difference will be in the details and whether the Porte survives. They may be able to exert some control over the Transcaucasus to compensate for loses in Arabia, Mesopotamia and the Levant. No Armenian republic for instance.

The German Army and Navy survive the War intact ( with no overseas Empire The Navy will be severly curtailed in the aftermath).

Both Kaisers could conceivably survive the War and the peace. If they endure until 1922 then they will probably survive. A-H will have to reform politically to survive intact. Imp. Germany will prop them up in the immediate term, as it is in their interest to do so to consolidate gains in the east via B-L.
IG will have to deal increasingly though with the SDP and their agenda. This should prove palatable to the Western allies through the '20's.

In the West the gains of the allies will seem increasingly phyrric in terms of what was lost for what was gained.. However, French revanchism is satisfied so they will be satisfied in the immediate term. They will however draw closer to Britain as they are still going to be wary of IG and its new Economic hegemony in East Central Europe. This of course is more than balanced by both of them having a mutual fear of the Bolsheviks in Russia.

The course of the Russian Revelution is likely to be entirely different... A "White" victory is increasingly possible and restoration of a Constitutional Tsar along the lines of IG at the very least. The Bolsheviks could very well still win, but their win will be confined to Great Russia only and not the IG and A-H satellites.

In A-H...Galicia will probably still be lost along with Bukovina in the aftermath of the war. It is probably palatable to them even to lose it to a German controlled Polish satellite in exchange for German aid in stabalizing the Empire as it reforms poitically into a more federal state/Empire. A Hapsburg in Poland and a Hohenzollern in a CP controlled Ukraine (This is most likely, though the reverse would probably be better in the long run). Probably Hohenzollerns in the Baltic states or outright annexation there to the German empire. Belorussia another Hohenzollern principality or annexed to Hohenzollern or Hapsburg Poland or the Ukraine.

All the while US financiers loan money to the CP States so they can repay their reparations to the Western allies and rebuild their economies.

If the If the CP empires survive, the chances of a WWII of OTL is increasingly unlikely. If it does occur, it could very well be limited to a Soviet or Tsarist Russian /German conflict instead. Where Imp. Japan would fit is another matter. They will probably not contemplate the move against the European colonies, but could move against Russia instead and curb their activities in China to placate the Americans and avoid the sanctions on War materials. But that is getting too far down the road...
 
What people neglect when they talk about the US and its effect on the Western Front, and the Russian withdrawal is that in Sept-Oct of 1918 the other 3 CPs collapsed and sued for peace. This freed up something in the vicinity of 1 million veteran British and French troops, plus the Italians. For all that Germany could transfer troops back form the occupied territories in the east, that couldn't transfer all of them [...]
Exactly. The Turks, Austrians, Hungarians and Bulgarians all sued for peace without any Americans shooting at them. American troops went to France and fought there. There's a reason we don't hear about the US Marine assault on the walls of Kars, or the US Navy bombardment of Trieste, or the US Army Doughboys on the Piave. It didn't happen.

Now, lack of US material support to the Allies would be another matter entirely. But then, it shouldn't be over-stated. US troops went into battle at Belleau Wood with helmets, machineguns and artillery from Britain and France, and they went with a frontal assault, against the advice of their allies; they sustained a casualty rate as great as that of the Somme, in terms of casualties per thousand men engaged. They were still learning how to win the battles in this new kind of war, and wouldn't listen when others told them.

The US contribution to the war effort was to supply money and materiel which it insisted be paid back - leading to the reparations demands later - and to otherwise moderate the victory demands of the Allies. Or else Germany would have been occupied and partitioned.

Absent the USA, Germany would still be defeated, and would be worse off after the war.
 

HurganPL

Banned
A-H will have to reform politically to survive intact.
That's a nice statement. But what can they do ? Their subjects don't want language laws-they want independence and their own states.


IG will have to deal increasingly though with the SDP and their agenda.
In OTL they wanted to flood Germany with resources plundered from Poland and other Mitteleuropa states that would keep German population and workers happy.

It is probably palatable to them even to lose it to a German controlled Polish satellite in exchange for German aid in stabalizing the Empire
In OTL the idea was to compensate them by annexation of Romania by AH.

A "White" victory is increasingly possible and restoration of a Constitutional Tsar along the lines of IG at the very least.
I believe Whites would win. I don't think Germany would want Bolsheviks at their border.

However how long before Russia turns to fascism and revenge just like Italy and Germany did after WW1 (and consider that Italy "won" the WW1). I would say-soon. A fascist Russia with its resources and no isolation like SU suffered is a formidable challenge as it can engage early in scientific and industrial cooperation with Western world.
A Hapsburg in Poland and a Hohenzollern in a CP controlled Ukrain
By 1917 AH withdraw from Poland, the protectorate would be run by German prince as well as all important aspects of its existance.
If the If the CP empires survive, the chances of a WWII of OTL is increasingly unlikely. If it does occur, it could very well be limited to a Soviet or Tsarist Russian /German conflict instead. Where Imp. Japan would fit is another matter. They will probably not contemplate the move against the European colonies
A Russia/German conflict would bring about their allies also. In case of Imperial Japan-as its threat to both Russia and Britain in the long turn, I would suspect their cooperation on that matter-the same as Germany.
 
Unless the allies planned on battling into the 20's , without American involvement , there is little chance that Germany will lose anything beyond her colonies . And if the war somehow dragged on into the 20's , expect to see red as the colour of flags all over Europe .
 
The only way Germany gets to keep the gains of Brest-Litovsk is if they win the war or there is a true peace through mutual exhaustion.

Neither of which are especially likely.

The Entente will not "win the war" and then leave a super-German state in the middle of Europe. A Germany from the Ruhr to the Dnieper (if not further) whether through out and out annexation or puppets is going to dominate the continent. Trading a largely profitless empire for the bread basket of Europe is quite clearly a net win for Germany.

France would never accept it and Britain would realise such a situation would make keeping a balance of power on the continent impossible.

If Germany is really intent on keeping her eastern conquests then it seems likely the French will demand (and get) a border on the Rhine.
 
At that rate , we will have leftist coups all over Europe within five years , as such a prolonged war will utterly discredit governments all over Europe. The Allies will have to bleed Europe from white to bleach for that to happen. I cannot concieve Germany surrendering half of Rhineland , unless its government's gone . But it will take two or three years of more fighting , and that's if Austria Hungray Collapses . Its going to be a further bloodbath , and I suspect that central Europe and Southern Europe will be thoroughly depopulated by the time its over , at the worse case scenario .( Make that all of Europe .)
 

Redbeard

Banned
If the Fuller plan works in 1919 it will be a crushing Entente victory and the terms put on Germany probably even tougher. The track is still laid for the Nazis but when they arrive at Blitzkrieg they find it already occupied and counterdoctrines developed and implemented. The doctrinal pendulum being above defence will be a problem for an aggressive Germany.

If no breakthrough then a stalemate armistice and a paradise for communist agitators. All of Europe will have reds and whites fighting each other, perhaps for decades and in blooddraining rivaling OTL WWII.

Regards

Steffen Redbeard
 
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