WWI ends early in 1917 - input wanted

BlondieBC

Banned
I would tend to think that in the peace talks the allies would object with regard to the taking of most of the coastline of Romania, which is populated by Romanians not Bulgarians. I know that Woodrow Wilson would. Thus in in view of the fact that both Emperors are related to the King of Romania it would make more sense to award southern Romania.

Without the USA entering the war, how important would WW opinion really be. Yes, he is at the conference, but is in the backrooms where the real deals are cut. If France, UK, and Germany agree on something because they already agreed on the deal, they can just politely ignore him. And I can see the Entente trading a little bit of Romania for some other concession, perhaps in the Colonial area or related to Belgium.

As for giving the Kingdom of Poland the Empires (AH) Polish lands there is strong evidence that both Emperor Franz Jozef and Karl would do just that if the new Kingdom was in someway tied to the Empire. By this I mean that the King was of the House of Hapsburg. Otto Hapsburg makes note of this in his book and there is also the same discussion in The Red Prince , which is the Story of Wilhelm Hapsburg and his struggle to establish a Ukrainian Kingdom.

Agreed, it is pretty clear if Poland accepts a Hapsburg King with real power, the get Polish portions of Galicia.
 
But Cyprus was never a major naval base for the British. Generally the Fleet would operate out of Gibraltar or Alexandra. Smaller units might be occasionally stationed at the other two.
 
I would propose that this map would be closer to the mark as to what might be acceptable to both sides. Note the Finnish border reflect what the country looked like before conclusion of the Winter War of 1939-40.

Europa 1917c.png
 
I would tend to think that in the peace talks the allies would object with regard to the taking of most of the coastline of Romania, which is populated by Romanians not Bulgarians. I know that Woodrow Wilson would. Thus in in view of the fact that both Emperors are related to the King of Romania it would make more sense to award southern Romania.
As for giving the Kingdom of Poland the Empires (AH) Polish lands there is strong evidence that both Emperor Franz Jozef and Karl would do just that if the new Kingdom was in someway tied to the Empire. By this I mean that the King was of the House of Hapsburg. Otto Hapsburg makes note of this in his book and there is also the same discussion in The Red Prince , which is the Story of Wilhelm Hapsburg and his struggle to establish a Ukrainian Kingdom.

Oh one other point you map has the failed to give Finland its Arctic coast which it held until the end of the War with the Soviet Union.

Wilson Who? The US have NO say in European issues ITTL...

THE UK and France are struggling with war debts to the US, but THE CPs basically won in the east especially Romania was soundly defeated by end of 1916. Its by purpose to cut of Romania...
 
Concerning Poland!

There is NO AH King in Poland! AH and Germany viewed the future of Poland in different ways! Germany was occupying Poland at the time of the ceasefire, and it left the country leaving weapons and a military mission behind.

Poland is independent but friendly to Germany and to a lesser extent to A-H, but this does not make AH giving up Galicia (now).

Until now I did not (IIRC) determine the exact state of polish politics, but I believe ther will be No Hohenzollern or Habsburg King in Poland - Maybe one of the lesser noble houses (saxon maybe - I go with ernst Heinrich third son of Friedrich August III).
 
Remember whatever German Prince you pick he needs to be Catholic or he will start off having a lot more problems with his future subjects. Alternatively who might consider backing a Polish Candidate for the title of King. This might be more beneficial in the long run.
 
Remember whatever German Prince you pick he needs to be Catholic or he will start off having a lot more problems with his future subjects. Alternatively who might consider backing a Polish Candidate for the title of King. This might be more beneficial in the long run.

THE King will have to be catholic, OR has to convert...
 
If you want to there are a bunch of Hapsburg Dukes to choose from also if you wanted to go outside of the big 3 German houses. Plus tons of other minor German houses.

Michael
 
January 1922

Tensions rise in Russia – forces are built up. Secretly the Soviet are preparing uprisings and attcks to take control of Petrograd and Moscow. They view the recent famine as inability of teh Government to effectively rule the Country.

Commonwealth Nations increase military strength - its only a small expansion overall, but its a sign that they are thinking to get a bit more independent from London...

February 1922

Egypt gains nominal independence from UK, but in reality UK dictates security policy and retains the Suez Canal Zone.

March 1922

In a surprise strike the Red Army attacks Moscow with a 3-1 advantage. The three pronged Attack (troops from Kazan, Belarus and Kiev) manages to destroy a Cossack Army (Kerensky loyal troops) – hastily assembled – with only a few own losses. The advancing Red Army is met with stiff resistance when they try to enter the city itself. At the end of March most of Moscow is secured by the Red Army. Except for a few pockets of resistance.

April 1922

After a battle that lasted almost a month Soviet Forces secure Moscow thus consolidating their holdings. They declare Monarchy is abolished in Russia and demand the surrender of all White and Czarist Forces.

On April 1st Emperor Charles of Austria dies of pneumonia. As Otto is only 10 years old there is demand for a regent. Two men are in discussion Archduke Maximilian, Karls brother, and Archduke Eugen the Commander of the Austrian Hungarian Army.

On April 15th the Hungarian parliament votes (to declare total independence and formation of the Hungarian republic. This would be effective by July 1st and the government is authorized to take up negotiations to peacefully dissolve the Austrian Hungarian Monarchy.

At the next day the Austrian parliament meets and after a long discussion (lasting well into the morning of the next day), votes to accept the Hungarian vote and authorises the government also for negotiation with Hungary.

The Habsburgs proclaim that they will not accept this and order the military to occupy the Parliaments. In Hungary this is ignored while in Vienna the military occupies the parliament. The members of the parliament are denied access to the Parliament building.

May 1922

On May 1st Red Army Elements are attacking Petrograd. The surprise attack succeeds only partly. Losses are light, but despite the killing of many Russian Army Officers by the end of the day resistance is forming. The Red Army also underestimated the number of Russian troops in and around the city. “Minister of War” Trotzky is attacked by the Faction of Steel.

All of the Czech and some other Members of the Austrian parliament have relocated to Prague. On May 1st the Czech Republic is declared (Bohemia, Moravia and Silesia) independent but “friendly” from Austria. Army commanders in and around Prague declare that they are friendly/neutral to the new state. The Austrian MPs (from all the other provinces from Cisleithania) that are also in Prague declare a government “in exile”.

Within a few weeks more Austrian MPs will join this parliament/government in exile.

The Czech and “Austrian – exile” start negotiations about the future border and relations.
The first thing decided is that “German” speaking people in the Czech Republic will have an autonomus status. The border will be drawn a bit north of the OTL border, but not significantly (some towns stay with Austria). The Czech Republic and “Austria” sign a defensive pact – directed against Italy there newspapers demand an intervention and the annexation of Tirol, Trieste (with Goricia and Istria) and Dalmatia.

Habsburg emissaries go first to Berlin and Rome, and to a lesser extent to the other European Capitals. In Rome the Italian foreign minister offers (secretly) military support to oppress the uprisings in exchange for South Tirol, Trieste and Dalmatia. For now the Habsburgs are not desparate to accept. In Berlin the Kaiser and government are reluctant to be drawn in an internal conflict – as they see it. But they offer that the German speaking Part of AH might join the Reich as a “kingdom”. Berlin thinks that A-H is a powder keg soon to explode and only fragmentation can prevent a new war. They also think that they can get the goodwill of the new states, so NOT losing their military potential, but getting rid of the problems with nationalism. They suggest that Galicia is added to the new Polish state (the Polish government has already been lobbying for this in Berlin for the last few years. German has not decided what to plan fo Istria (Görz is seen as “German”), Dalmatia and Slovenia. But those are seen as assets (a naval base in the Med).

UK has not decided what to do – or even what it wants….

In Paris Czech exiles (and former Legionaries of Czech descent) successfully lobby with the French government. France declares that it recognizes the Hungarian state and the Czech republic.

to be continued...

________________
Ideas how the events continue are welcome...
 
Last edited:
Some comments the Former Russian Capital of St Petersburg was still called Petrograd, It did not receive the name Leningrad until long after the Reds took power, say the mid 1920s.
Next King George V was an admirer of Kaiser Karl and they exchanged a lot of letters. In OTL he provided help when Karl and his family were in trouble. Thus I think that the King would attempt to influence the Prime Minister to support Karl rather than allow all of the chaos.

I doubt that France would show much interest in attempting to break up the Empire, especially with the threat to everyone in the East.

As foor Trotsky the man was a very good Red Minister of War and got along quite well with Lenin but he and Stalin saw things differently. Trotsky thought that Stalin was a threat to the Red Army and the attempt to win control as he was a poor planner. Below Trotsky with the Red Army.

trotsky_red_army.jpg
 
You are right of course about Petrograd - Its just that I grew up with Leningrad being the name of the city - Only when Lenin dies TTL it will be renamed... ;)

So you say UK should be pro Karl, but are they pro habsburg too? And enough to risk intervention.

Back in school I learned that the Czech exiles were supported by France, so I thought it to be a good idea that ITTL France supports the breakup of the Monarchy (As IOTL Treaty St Germain).

Its also a little twist as France and Italy (forming the mediterranean alliance) have not coordinated their diplomatic response - yet) France thought a breakup A-H would enable Italy to gain their goals. ATM Italy wants to achive the goal by supportung the Habsburgs.

Notice ATM the gvmt in exile has NOT declared Austria a republic...

Concerning trotzky - I just want to set a base for a future conflicht between Trotzky and Stalin. Stalin sees the opportunity to blame Trotzky for not noticing the military buildup in Petrograd - they estimated the resistance being as strong as Moscow, but its around double strength. Shifting blame is just a game...
 
Yes, Trotsky had a very low opinion of Stalin. Stalin would make mistakes and then blame others. Trotsky felt that it was his stupid actions that led to the failure in the War with Poland. There will definitely be conflict between the two. Stalin was interested mainly in gaining absolute power for himself.
There is strong evidence that would indicate that if Karl had gained the Throne in Hungary both Nations would have supported him. Even latter France was willing to support a Hapsburg restoration in Austria. One must recall that Karl and his wife had connections in France and Spain and as I mentioned Karl was considered a friend by King George V.
I could see Italy supporting Karl and his restoration so as to weaken the Serbs.
Remember Italy has a claim to the throne of Montenegro .
 
Top