ww3 with hitler still alive

this one came up in a college class for me a couple years ago... thought i would bounce it off all your brilliant minds

lets say in the last 2 months before the german surrender patton goes looney... he requipes 5 germans divisions of his prisoners with captured material and lets them pass through his army's lines to attack the russians i would figure the point of attack to be konievs army comming in south of berlin... i would assume they break the encirling ring and hitler would still be hanging out with eva in his bunker

stalin being a paranoid soul and having good intelligence organs would figure out that the germans didnt magically get strong and know patton was unleashing this group against him

where does it go from there
 
This thread should be transferred to the ASB forum. A person can't suddenlly become loony out of nowhere and that his subordinates would probably contact Eisenhower or Bradley about their now looney commander.
 
his staff was extemely loyal to him and they did underhanded things in stealing supplies from others armys in the shaef theatre... im not saying he wouldnt need some help to pull it off but suppose he and a small circle requipped the forces in absolute secrecy i kept it to 5 divisions maybe make it smaller (full strength 3 division corps?)... he was a borderline crazy person and would have loved to start a war with russians

maybe everyone backs off and he is relieved but some of the damage might be done
 
his staff was extemely loyal to him and they did underhanded things in stealing supplies from others armys in the shaef theatre... im not saying he wouldnt need some help to pull it off but suppose he and a small circle requipped the forces in absolute secrecy i kept it to 5 divisions maybe make it smaller (full strength 3 division corps?)... he was a borderline crazy person and would have loved to start a war with russians

maybe everyone backs off and he is relieved but some of the damage might be done

3-5 divisions consists of TENS OF THOUSANDS of German soldiers. Unless everyone turns blind, they will start asking questions.
 
im sure he could scour some pow camps and depots or put "his" people in charge of them things where very choatic the last 100 days he could label the group "straglers who escaped the ruhr encirlement" or something silly like that i realize its long shot but i figure he could put the equivelent of a corps through his lines in 4-8 weeks without everyone finding out before they could be let loose
 
im sure he could scour some pow camps and depots or put "his" people in charge of them things where very choatic the last 100 days he could label the group "straglers who escaped the ruhr encirlement" or something silly like that i realize its long shot but i figure he could put the equivelent of a corps through his lines in 4-8 weeks without everyone finding out before they could be let loose

You mean 4-8 weeks of Germans moving the other way and not getting noticed with MPs and officers rubbing their heads wondering where all the prisones have gone? Also the Germans aren't all that anxious to go fight the Russians. A lot of Germans who surrendered to the allies during the last stages of the wars were trying to avoid being captured by the Red Army.
 
you bring up a valid point... many germans had fled the russians to surrender to the west but if an american officer came up to someone say from east prussia or silesia and said want a chance to win back your home and your honor and save your land from stalin do think they might snap it up? again we arent looking for big numbers keep it 30-40k max

many germans did hold hope that the americans would roll up their backs and protect them from the russians the movements of wenck's 12th army and busse's 4th army would seem to show that
 
you bring up a valid point... many germans had fled the russians to surrender to the west but if an american officer came up to someone say from east prussia or silesia and said want a chance to win back your home and your honor and save your land from stalin do think they might snap it up? again we arent looking for big numbers keep it 30-40k max

many germans did hold hope that the americans would roll up their backs and protect them from the russians the movements of wenck's 12th army and busse's 4th army would seem to show that

But then they will be expecting that the Americans and British armed forces will go WITH them to drive back the Red Army. If they do not, the Germans will think it is all a trick so that they can be captured by the Red Army. If Patton is stupid enough to do it, the Supreme Allied Command will ask for reports on what's going on.

Also remember it only takes one report to higher ups for an investigation on wether or not the report of Patton being crazy is true.
 
i completely agrees they would feel betrayed if it wasnt followed ie bush sr with the shiates and the kurds against saddam... but the goal in his case would just be to get it started if in the few weeks before high command could unravel him he could unleash the requipped troops to make stalin retaliate, it could rapidly spiral into open conflict stalin is not known for forgiveness and he and lenin always say america as the true enemey
 
i completely agrees they would feel betrayed if it wasnt followed ie bush sr with the shiates and the kurds against saddam... but the goal in his case would just be to get it started if in the few weeks before high command could unravel him he could unleash the requipped troops to make stalin retaliate, it could rapidly spiral into open conflict stalin is not known for forgiveness and he and lenin always say america as the true enemey

This again runs into the problem that you can't simply hide rearming 3-5 divisions of German POWs. Also, remember that all of this falls under the premises that Patton suddenlly becomes looney, which you gave no reasons why. Patton may disobey a couple of orders, but what he is doing is tantamount to treason, which I doubt he would take the risk.
 
these actions where something he clearly talked about (in a version) wanting to do right after the war my premise is just him actually acting on them
it would be nutz to pick a fight with the russians and it was something he wanted to do so my premise of him being looney enough to act on it isnt far fetched... he made a lot of enemies in his time in the service and he knew he would be quick to be on the retirement list... he didnt want his star to wane its not above someone in his position to flip a couple pow camps and depots

his army and the 9th army basically allowed the 12th army (wenck) to slip away to go give the russians a harder time in destroying the oder remnants... they stotpped both ground and air attacks on them during a very critical phase
let me maybe repose the idea of an instigation
lets say wenck instead of rescuing the 4th army (busse) flows into berlin and inflicts really nasty losses on the russians
they still take the city but get shattered in the process
do they go and blame patton and the americans for the letting the troops get to them scot free? and then do they make and act on threats
 
these actions where something he clearly talked about (in a version) wanting to do right after the war my premise is just him actually acting on them
it would be nutz to pick a fight with the russians and it was something he wanted to do so my premise of him being looney enough to act on it isnt far fetched... he made a lot of enemies in his time in the service and he knew he would be quick to be on the retirement list... he didnt want his star to wane its not above someone in his position to flip a couple pow camps and depots

Again, he is not that stupid;)

his army and the 9th army basically allowed the 12th army (wenck) to slip away to go give the russians a harder time in destroying the oder remnants... they stotpped both ground and air attacks on them during a very critical phase

Again, he is not that stupid.

let me maybe repose the idea of an instigation
lets say wenck instead of rescuing the 4th army (busse) flows into berlin and inflicts really nasty losses on the russians
they still take the city but get shattered in the process
do they go and blame patton and the americans for the letting the troops get to them scot free? and then do they make and act on threats

The problem with this, is that to even reach Zhukov's front, you will have to defeat Konev's 1st Ukrainian Front which alone heavily outnumbers and outguns any of the remaining organized German forces.
 
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