WW2: Japanese ships in British waters?

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Assuming a timeline in which Japan is on the side of the Allies in WW2, would ships of the IJN be able to operate in the North Sea or Atlantic? (I enquire, since I'm not sure how how different/similar operating conditions might be in the waters off Britain, as compared to the Pacific in terms of usual swell, visibility conditions, etc, etc.)

As far as logistics are concerned, would Japanese warships be able to use ammunition produced by British factories, or would they be reliant on shipments from the home islands?

And would Japanese naval aircraft be able to be adequately supplied with fuel by British refineries?
 
- Why would they go all the way to GB ?
They could just replace RN ships in the Pacific, Indian Ocean, Med, South Atlantic. this would put them nearer to home and supplies and let the RN take the most casualties as well. (and it would match OTL WW1 deployments)

But to reply to your Qs
would ships of the IJN be able to operate in the North Sea or Atlantic? (I enquire, since I'm not sure how how different/similar operating conditions might be in the waters off Britain, as compared to the Pacific in terms of usual swell, visibility conditions, etc, etc.)
- Should be fine (or at least adequate) they operated off Japan in big typhoons/Aleutian (and nobody really had good systems to deal with Arctic etc pre WW2)

As far as logistics are concerned, would Japanese warships be able to use ammunition produced by British factories, or would they be reliant on shipments from the home islands?
- Would need IJN shells (not that you actually use that much for the bigger types) but might be able to get consumables from the RN. (I'm sure GB could build them but probably relatively easy to ship from Japan.

And would Japanese naval aircraft be able to be adequately supplied with fuel by British refineries?
- Probably better than Japan and they would have access to US stocks that GB was using (and 100+ Octane so more powerful as well after the engines are set up for it)
 
In the Great War Japan sent a destroyer squadron to operate with the British in the Mediterranean. I dont know what their combat record was, but they gained recognition for their high readiness rate. That strongly suggests their logistics support was satisfactory.

In WWII additional destroyer squadrons & light carriers for ASW ops would be extremely welcome in the Mediterranean & Atlantic. A larger naval TF or fleet of a couple fast battleships & a carrier would be a godsend for the Brits during their worst months in the Med in 1941. If logstically supportable a larger force would allow the Allies to wrap up the Italian navy & terminate the African front much earlier.

Contact with the Japanese navies small but technically advance fleet amphibious force might accelerate development with the Allies.
 

Saphroneth

Banned
...come to think of it, simply NOT fighting Japan in WW2 opens up a lot of resources for the British Empire irrespective of Japanese help!
The result could well be the Southern Strategy being employed in a big way.
 
Wait. Why would Japan join the Allies? And why would they send a fleet to GB?
At least I could see a few carriers and some destroyers to Med then to the Denmark-Norway Strait.

And who's going to be in the Axis?
 
Ammunition

- Would need IJN shells (not that you actually use that much for the bigger types) but might be able to get consumables from the RN. (I'm sure GB could build them but probably relatively easy to ship from Japan.
I assume that at some point due to shipping times from Japan and increasing u boat activity, it would be become desirable to manufacture what was possible locally. Would you have any idea how long it might take to set up new or adapt existing British capacity to produce IJN shells?
 
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In the Great War Japan sent a destroyer squadron to operate with the British in the Mediterranean. I dont know what their combat record was, but they gained recognition for their high readiness rate. That strongly suggests their logistics support was satisfactory.

s.
They used British logistics.

Co-operation between the two navies tended to be pretty close with lots of Japanese personnel training in the UK.


Did Japanese ships really use such different shells?
Considering how many of them were built by British ship yards it seems weird they would do their own thing.
 
They used British logistics.
Co-operation between the two navies tended to be pretty close with lots of Japanese personnel training in the UK.

Did Japanese ships really use such different shells?
Considering how many of them were built by British ship yards it seems weird they would do their own thing.

In WW1 they would have been using GB guns (or Japanese copy's) but that stopped at the WNT in the 1920s so in WW2 they would have had different shells for most of the new ships (and any rebuilds) not that GB couldn't build shell but why bother if you can just send them from Japan ?


I assume that at some point due to shipping times from Japan and increasing u boat activity, it would be become desirable to manufacture what was possible locally. Would you have any idea how long it might take to set up new or adapt existing British capacity to produce IJN shells?

Don't think the Uboats will matter much, you will be based far away (out of reach of most threats) and with the IJN to help the RN you can afford to run well defended convoys.

A force of IJN in Eastern Med, South Atlantic and Indian ocean could save the British from a load of trouble with raiders (8' CAs) and help with convoys (5' DDs). It would not be to risky and relatively cheap for the Japanese (few losses and not much combat so not many shells needed :cool: )
 
A Sino-German Axis...

...I don't know why, but a lot of TLs are asking questions I have been writing about in the past year.

Chiang was quite pally with the Germans before the Second World War. If Japan had not fallen out with Britain, I think the Japanese would have wanted to be allied in order to get oil fuel, etc. A Sino-German Axis might have been possible. Chinese ports could have provided bases for U-boats and the Chinese could have stormed Indo-China or gone for India. Ve-ery interesting...
 
Chiang was quite pally with the Germans before the Second World War. If Japan had not fallen out with Britain, I think the Japanese would have wanted to be allied in order to get oil fuel, etc. A Sino-German Axis might have been possible. Chinese ports could have provided bases for U-boats and the Chinese could have stormed Indo-China or gone for India. Ve-ery interesting...

Don't you just end up with the IJA getting the supplies it needs to really win in China ? (with GB + US supplying LL and allies with USSR post 22 June 1941 )
 
i suppose the Kongos would be all ok with using british stocks of WW1 14in greenboys. I'm assuming they did'nt rip out the guns and replace them in any of the rebuilds they had?
 
i suppose the Kongos would be all ok with using british stocks of WW1 14in greenboys. I'm assuming they did'nt rip out the guns and replace them in any of the rebuilds they had?

What stocks of 14inch Greenboys. The RN only had the one 14inch Battleship didnt it and that went to the original owners Chile as soon as possible. Why keep shells for a gun you dont use anymore.
 
What stocks of 14inch Greenboys. The RN only had the one 14inch Battleship didnt it and that went to the original owners Chile as soon as possible. Why keep shells for a gun you dont use anymore.

you know, i completely thought for a mo that the RN BC's were 14in like the Kongos but of course they were 13,5

my bad

(altho, i'm sure there were a few 14in guns in coastal batteries but i have no idea whether they were RN stocks or RA stocks or their numbers
 
14" guns

i suppose the Kongos would be all ok with using british stocks of WW1 14in greenboys. I'm assuming they did'nt rip out the guns and replace them in any of the rebuilds they had?
The King George V battleships of the Royal Navy seem to have used 14" guns.
Link

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I don't know if they'd have used the same design of shells as the IJN, but the calibre of the guns was the same as you say the Kongos had, anyway.
 
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Saphroneth

Banned
That would actually justify the 14" guns better - commonality of supply - than the OTL justification which was kinda "we hope everyone else will use 14"".
 
Both are 14'/45 BUT don't think it would work.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]IJN World War II[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] APC Type 91 - 1,485 lbs. (673.5 kg)[/FONT]

RN [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]WW2
APC Mark VIIB - 1,590 lbs. (721 kg)

USN [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]AP Mark 16 Mods 1 to 11 - 1,500 lbs. (680.4 kg)[/FONT]
 
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Time required?

Both are 14'/45 BUT don't think it would work.

[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]IJN World War II[/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica] APC Type 91 - 1,485 lbs. (673.5 kg)[/FONT]

RN [FONT=Arial,Helvetica]WW2
APC Mark VIIB - 1,590 lbs. (721 kg)

USN [/FONT]
[FONT=Arial,Helvetica]AP Mark 16 Mods 1 to 11 - 1,500 lbs. (680.4 kg)[/FONT]
So: any thoughts, anyone, how long it might take, if Britain has a pre-existing capability to manufacture 14" shells, to expand facilities to be able to manufacture ones to IJN specifications?
 
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In WW1 they would have been using GB guns (or Japanese copy's) but that stopped at the WNT in the 1920s so in WW2 they would have had different shells for most of the new ships ...

Japan stopped all battleship construction with the Washington Naval Treaty. The only battleships built by them after that were the Yamato class.

Their ten other battleships were pre-Treaty construction, and did not have their guns replaced.

All of them mounted 14" guns. The four Kongo-class mounted British-made or -designed 14" guns (the first Kongo was built in Britain). I don't know whether the 14" guns of the Fuso and Ise class ships were British made or designed.

However, it seems fairly trivial for British factories to produce even slightly different 14" shells.
 
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