WW2 in a CP victorious world

I'll posit two scenarios and you tell me what WW2 will look like. I won't elaborate to much because I'm bound to make mistakes if I do so because my knowledge isn't that detailed. Here goes nothing:

Scenario 1: German 1914 victory

The POD is that Germany wins the race to the sea and inflicts a tremendous defeat upon the French and the still rather small BEF. This POD is used a lot for "1914 victory" -scenarios so I guess it's okay. It's more or less a rerun of 1870-1871. A peace treaty is signed forcing the French to give up some colonies (any suggestions about which ones the Germans might want?) and pay war reparations. France's national pride is hurt as this is their second defeat at the hands of the Germans in little under half a century. Belgium is cut up in Flanders which goes to Holland and Wallonia which becomes "independent". The Belgian Congo is known as the German Congo from now on. Britain gets a status quo ante bellum peace because the Germans know full well that the Kaiser Wilhelm's beloved High Seas Fleet couldn't possibly hope to decisively defeat the Royal Navy. Germany then turns it attention to Russia...
Obviously the Austro-Hungarian Empire will still be quit vital. After Russia is defeated the Austro-Hungarians will still be around. Maybe you could have a war start in the Balkans (again) causing a conflict with a resurgent Russia. The French and British might wanna give it a go too since Germany has hegemony over the continent.

Scenario 2: German 1918 "victory"

POD is no unlimited submarine warfare, no Zimmerman telegram, and a bit more luck in the Spring Offensive of 1918 or TTL's equivalent of it. America stays out of the war. Germany kicks Russia out of the war as per OTL in march 1918. They then rush all the freed up troops to the western front. Somewhere in spring or summer 1918 they start up an offensive similar to OTL's Operation Michael (with the infiltration tactics etc). Only this time they capture Amiens and Hazebrouck and make a more or less succesfull dash for the channel ports. The lesser allies are quick to make peace and get the best deal possible. Germany loses all of its colonies exept for German East Africa. The French are quite happy to trade the colonies of the lesser allies in exchange for keeping their own. France does have to pay quite hefty war reparations. Belgium loses the Congo* but doesn't get cut up. Germany also gains Mozambique and Angola*. Germany's gains in the treaty of Brest-Litovsk are recognized. Britain gains a few German colonies and is left alone because Germany has no means with which they can force Britain to cede anything. Italy is left alone because it's considered to unimportant and weak. The Italian colonies are a mere collection of worthless deserts anyway (Libyan oil isn't discovered yet). Eritrea and Somalia aren't worth much either. Instead Italy joins Germany in feasting on the corps of the Austro-Hungarian Empire. Italian national pride is still hurt though. They haven't forgotten Caporetto and other defeats. You could have a WW2 with a fascist France and Italy teaming up with the Soviet Union and Britain only to turn on the Soviets if they manage to defeat the Germans. I'll leave it up to you.

So what does WW2 look like in these two scenarios?

* I don't know if that's plausible. France will be happy, I think. They'll gain colonies instead of losing them after all.

What will WW2 be like.
 
Last edited:
The world would find itwelf under Threat from France in world war 2, since the only reason hitler gained power anyway is because of what happened to Germany after WW1, hyperinflation, skyroketing national debt and unemployment. The same things that might happen to France if Germany won the war.
 
The world would find itwelf under Threat from France in world war 2, since the only reason hitler gained power anyway is because of what happened to Germany after WW1, hyperinflation, skyroketing national debt and unemployment. The same things that might happen to France if Germany won the war.

I don't have a problem believing that France could go fascist. But France at the same time is a rather weaker country than Germany, in terms of population and industrial potential ...

Now, if Britain somehow tipped as well, things could get really bad.
 

General Zod

Banned
I don't have a problem believing that France could go fascist. But France at the same time is a rather weaker country than Germany, in terms of population and industrial potential ...

Now, if Britain somehow tipped as well, things could get really bad.

Britain is unlikely. But if both France and Russia go fascist, things could turn rather ugly. In a CP-victorious TL, Totalitarian Russia can play the role of Nazi Germany, and Totalitarian France the role of Fascist Italy.
 
A fascist Britain and France combined would only match a victorious Germany rather than overawe it. Germany and it's sattelites would be the 2nd most powerful country in the world after the USA. I don't think a victorious Germany would have any particular axe to grind, it would be keen to hold onto it's gains.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
Donor
Another interresting scenario would be if Communism or Radical Socialism became the ruling ideology in some former Entente powers. Let's say Germany wins in 1918 (through some really incredible deeds), the Russian revolution happened and Russia is Commy, meanwhile authorities in France and Italy could not hold back the revolutionary wave and various forms of Radical Socialism took over. In the 30s a Left Wing alliance of Russia, France and Italy is formed with the aim to start a World Revolution.
 
Victorious CP in Scenario 2 means that Bolshevism will be abolished in Russia and some kind of puppet Czar be installed. Scenario 1 will most probably result in Russia asking for peace and getting a quite favourable one. In both cases, there's a good chance that Russia goes "fascist".
In France there may first be a communist (syndicalist) revolution after the lost war, Germany should intervene and install an unpopular (?) authoritarian regime (under Petain?).
The Germans, on the other hand, will not have forgotten how Britain "betrayed" them in 1914. They will prepare for "the second round".
Victorious CP also means that the Austro-Hungarian Empire will be kept alive, as will the Ottoman one. As the nationalist powers that brought about their disintegration in OTL are also powerful in TTL, the starting point for WW2 may lie in the Balkans or the Caucasus, German interventionism clashing with Russian fascism, maybe fought initially in a proxy war between client states. Britain, under the threat of unrestricted German maritime armament (that the broke empire can no longer match), will support Russia, while France - now a German "client" - makes naval bases available for the Kriegsmarine.
 
a CP victory along the lines of scenario 2 would be interesting, especially if Belgium is declared a neutral state in the peace treaty. In that situation Britain could claim (not really true but good for propaganda purposes) to have won because 1. Our original declared war aim has been achieved (preservation of Belgian neutrality) and 2. We got some more colonies!

The important thing would be whether this would be enough to prevent Britain falling under an extremist government. I think it probably would. France probably would undergo a revolution though and end up either fascist or communist depending who ends up winning out. I suspect in that situation Britain would probably begin to view France as the main enemy once more

You could get a WW2 with UK and Germany plus assorted minor allies going up against France, Russia + Italy. Depending upon how Russia has managed to modernise and who's in charge, lets say some one a lot less paranoid than stalin, it could be a relatively equal match up
 
Victorious CP in Scenario 2 means that Bolshevism will be abolished in Russia and some kind of puppet Czar be installed.

I doubt that. Germany has just had four years of war. Their economy and their food situation is bad (although not as bad as IOTL because there is no Treaty of Versailles.). The German populace won't be eager for yet another war. Instead I can see Germany keeping the USSR around as a communist boogeyman to keep its Eastern European vassals in line. Secondly, Russia is huge. The Germans would be batshit insane if they went in there. I suppose they could drive the commies out of European Russia but at a heavy cost. And Germany would have to stay to crush communist insurgencies. It'd be their Vietnam. Thirdly, Germany is probably gonna end up with a social-democrat government.

I could see a fascist France allying with the Soviet Union because they need each other. The Soviet Union will be weaker but still strong. Stalin will still force his industrialization upon the USSR. Italy could go either way since Mussolini is an opportunist and will side with whoever he thinks is going to win. Britain could join Germany to prevent France and the USSR from gaining hegemony over the continent. Agreed, they don't like Germany but they'd probably much rather have Germany leading Europe than the French and Soviets.

This is assuming we're taking a 1918 victory as a POD. In a 1914 victory Russia will most likely become fascist.

But I guess the war will end with German nukes.
 
Ample support to the Russian Whites will be given by the victorious CP. The German government will be glad to allow the formation of Freikorps for Russia, just to get rid of those "eternal warriors" that the war has produced - and who do not fit into the regular army now being re-formed. Also, Russia will provide opportunity to test new weapons and tactics under warlike conditions.
A Scenerio 2 German victory means a Ludendorff/Pan-Germanist victory. They will not tolerate Bolshevism.
 
Ample support to the Russian Whites will be given by the victorious CP. The German government will be glad to allow the formation of Freikorps for Russia, just to get rid of those "eternal warriors" that the war has produced

A Scenerio 2 German victory means a Ludendorff/Pan-Germanist victory. They will not tolerate Bolshevism.

But by releasing Lenin, they proved they had no problem using Bolshevism as a weapon. What do they care if the Russians go red? They have no investments there, and have taken the best parts (and can still demand tribute).

They also proved willing to work with the USSR after WW1, OTL.
 
Bolshevism and the threat of revolution were acute dangers to aristocratic, authoritarian Germany that could not be tolerated. Already in 1918 there were voices that called for the abolition of the nascent Sowjet Union.
The Weimar Republic cooperated with the Bolshevics because both nations were excluded from the community of other nations.
 
But by releasing Lenin, they proved they had no problem using Bolshevism as a weapon. What do they care if the Russians go red? They have no investments there, and have taken the best parts (and can still demand tribute).

They also proved willing to work with the USSR after WW1, OTL.

The Germans had no problem helping Lenin in a country they were currently at war with, but that hardly means they liked or even would have tolerated him in the long term. Sending Lenin to Russia was a classic case of "the enemy of my enemy is my friend" and such alliances rarely last much beyond the common enemy that unites them. Germany hated Lenin and wanted nothing to do with him, but if working with him helped them to win the war then they were willing to do so.

As for the OTL postwar collaboration with the USSR, that was a Social-Democrat dominated Weimar Republic that was an internaitonal pariah, and thus the only country who would even associate with them was the other international pariah, the Soviet Union.
 
Chengar, all of what you say is true, even if it ignores the admiration many in the German military had forr the USSR's, umm, extreme measures. But aside from some blanket statements about hatred of Communism, you haven't made it clear why they would proceed to join the Civil War, or why they'd be more effective than the allies of OTL.
 
I can see passive German aid to the whites during the Russian civil war, but not much else, Germany is exhausted, and there would be a lot of political wrangling back home in the 1918 scenario.
 
Chengar, all of what you say is true, even if it ignores the admiration many in the German military had forr the USSR's, umm, extreme measures. But aside from some blanket statements about hatred of Communism, you haven't made it clear why they would proceed to join the Civil War, or why they'd be more effective than the allies of OTL.

Well, I would have to agree that German intervention is probably going to be limited; as you and others have said Germany would be exhausted from World War I and in no mood to get involved in another conflict. However, their position on the Russian border offers them a few strategic advantages that the OTL allies were lacking; anti-Communist volunteers would have a much easier time getting to the theatre of battle, logistics would be slightly less complicated, and White forces would have access to secure bases to build up forces for any counter-attacks.

Supplies might be problematic, but the Whites should have a healthy supply of surplus German weaponry once WWI is over, plus possibly some captured Allied supplies. Also, given that Germany is a conservative monarchy whose sphere of influence borders the Russian Empire I would think that, while outright war is out of the question, Germany would be willing to make somewhat higher sacrifices to win than the OTL Allies, who were not directly threatened at the time or as severely opposed ideologically.

I wouldn't say all those factors are enough to guarantee that the Reds lose the Civil War, but I do think we would have a fair number of major changes within the Civil War, which naturally could alter the outcome as well.
 
*bump*

Personally, I think the Soviets would still have won. Germany has to take care of this alone. The French will be preoccupied with putting down communist uprisings and possibly mutinies. Britain will be digesting new colonies and will be perfectly happy to let Germany create its very own Vietnam. Germany won't do that. They have enough problems as it is. And as I said before, the Germans might want to keep the USSR around as a communist boogeyman.

But we're getting off topic. Could anyone do a TL about a WW2 taking place after CP-victory along the lines of scenario 2? I'm not so much an expert on politics and I can't come up with a casus belli but I think I can give suggestions about the war itself.

Alliances:

Allies:UK*+German Empire+Lithuania+Baltic Archduchy+Ukrainian Hetmanate+Kingdom of Poland +Finland

Axis: nazi-France+Italy+Soviet Union*+Japan**

*Weird I know, but hey, strange times make strange bedfellows.
**France could sell French-Indochina to them or at least lease some naval bases to the IJN. It could serve as base of operations to attack Burma, India and the Dutch East Indies.

My guess is that more progressive army leaders could come to power in France since France was beaten. That would show that something is wrong with the French army. De Gaulle could introduce their version of blitzkrieg (guerre de foudre). France's armed forces would be like those of OTL's nazi-Germany only smaller (except for the navy which was bigger than the Kriegsmarine IOTL). Germany would be more like OTL's France.

The French would invade Belgium and the Netherlands and would run over them in 3 weeks max to get to the North German plains and the Ruhr area. Sheer numbers would drive them back however. The German Army outnumbers the French at least 1.5:1 or maybe even to 2:1. The French navy would likely be confined to its ports since the combined might of the High Seas Fleet and the Royal Navy are able to squash the French navy. Their navy couldn't do more than some raiding.

The weakened but still strong Soviet Union will attack Germany's vassals in Eastern-Europe. I assume that they all have German trained and German equipped armies. Soviet gains will initially be large mostly due to superior numbers but their army will be inferior in quality. Trench war won't happen in the east. I could see a front that is always changing at least until the Germans come in to squash them.

Italy is pretty much the same as in OTL. They'll fight a desert war and lose badly. They'll always need French supports (corps d'Afrique led by De Gaulle). Japan will run over the DEI and Burma and parts of India and they'll be bogged down in China as IOTL. Hopefully they don't attack Pearl Harbor or do something equally stupid cause German Empire+USA+UK is war winning combination. That would be too easy.

What would be interesting is a German A-bomb. Without the nazi's guys like Einstein, Teller, Szilard, Lise Meitner and Enrico Fermi will stay in Germany. And Imperial Germany has more resources and funds too.
 
However, their position on the Russian border offers them a few strategic advantages that the OTL allies were lacking;

The Germans are in Poland; the Allies were in Poland. The Allies were in the Baltic; the Germans were in the Baltic. What am I missing?

Of course, you've also made the Whites appear to be German pupets.

anti-Communist volunteers would have a much easier time getting to the theatre of battle,

Anti-Communist volunteers? All three of them?

Germany would be willing to make somewhat higher sacrifices to win than the OTL Allies, who were not directly threatened at the time or as severely opposed ideologically.

You still haven't made it clear why the Germans would be willing to make higher sacrifices.

I will grant that you've probably made Rosa Luxembourg the next leader of Germany.
 
Top