ww2 Greece

i've recently heard that germany would not have bailed italy out if it wasn't for the fact that the british moved in. if thats the case, my question is how much of a chance did greece have against italy? and would it have been possible for the greeks to force Mussolini to the negotiation table?
 
i've recently heard that germany would not have bailed italy out if it wasn't for the fact that the british moved in. if thats the case, my question is how much of a chance did greece have against italy? and would it have been possible for the greeks to force Mussolini to the negotiation table?

Prior to British and German intervention the Greeks had already pretty much defeated the Italians. The smart thing for them to have done would have been to negotiate a peace treaty that didn't humiliate Mussolini too much. This could well have prevented German intervention and the subsequent conquest of Greece
 
Prior to British and German intervention the Greeks had already pretty much defeated the Italians.
They had pushed the Italians back. However the last Greek offensives failed to achieve the desired breakthroughs, because the Italian defenses were better organized, while the Greeks lacked the numbers to exploit breaches in the front and logistics started becoming a problem.

The smart thing for them to have done would have been to negotiate a peace treaty that didn't humiliate Mussolini too much. This could well have prevented German intervention and the subsequent conquest of Greece
That may be tricky.
The British were already deeply involved in Greece by the time the Greeks were clearly on the winning side.
Greek "victory" in Albania was only clear in Janury 1941. By then the British had already agreed to take command of Crete (if I am not mistaken). Even if the British never landed forces into mainland Greece and the Italians decided to close a deal with the Greeks over Albania, there is a fair chance that the Germans would still intervene.
 
Greek "victory" in Albania was only clear in Janury 1941. By then the British had already agreed to take command of Crete (if I am not mistaken). Even if the British never landed forces into mainland Greece and the Italians decided to close a deal with the Greeks over Albania, there is a fair chance that the Germans would still intervene.

The British arrived on October 31st 1940, after then it was too late. What we need is a PoD that makes the Greeks more confident, so they don't need to strip Crete of defences and rely on the British. According to wikipedia, the Greeks made several substantial arms purchases that were not delivered. Altering this could be the PoD you need - say, by shifting the orders up by six months or having Britain and France prioritise keeping Greece on side slightly higher, so more deliveries are actually made.

The other way could be for Metaxes to make a slightly different call at the time, and demand a large British deployment up front before anything happens, which the British can't meet.
 
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The Brits not intervening in Greece is one of my favorite AH topics, because it leads to another POD as well... if the Brits aren't in Greece, then they stay in N. Africa and continue smashing the Italian empire there... hell, they were on the verge of winning everything there when Churchill stopped them and yanked out most of the troops to send to Greece...
 
The Brits not intervening in Greece is one of my favorite AH topics, because it leads to another POD as well... if the Brits aren't in Greece, then they stay in N. Africa and continue smashing the Italian empire there... hell, they were on the verge of winning everything there when Churchill stopped them and yanked out most of the troops to send to Greece...

I also developed a short ATL once, in which the British aid to Greece was denied by the Greek government out of fear of provoking the Germans into attacking.
Then instead of landing all those troops in Greece, the British decided to invade the Italian held Dodecanese in spring 1941 instead, just as mainland Greece was falling.
 
They had pushed the Italians back. However the last Greek offensives failed to achieve the desired breakthroughs, because the Italian defenses were better organized, while the Greeks lacked the numbers to exploit breaches in the front and logistics started becoming a problem.

if i remember correctly, part of the reason the greeks failed breakthrough was because of the italian naval presence. i wonder if the italians had decisively lost the Battle of Calabria if that would have made a difference?


That may be tricky.
The British were already deeply involved in Greece by the time the Greeks were clearly on the winning side.
Greek "victory" in Albania was only clear in Janury 1941. By then the British had already agreed to take command of Crete (if I am not mistaken). Even if the British never landed forces into mainland Greece and the Italians decided to close a deal with the Greeks over Albania, there is a fair chance that the Germans would still intervene.

for what reason would germany intervene? if the british never sent troops then is no value for the germans to help since hitler was focusing on operation barbarossa.

The British arrived on October 31st 1940, after then it was too late. What we need is a PoD that makes the Greeks more confident, so they don't need to strip Crete of defences and rely on the British. According to wikipedia, the Greeks made several substantial arms purchases that were not delivered. Altering this could be the PoD you need - say, by shifting the orders up by six months or having Britain and France prioritise keeping Greece on side slightly higher, so more deliveries are actually made.

could someone elaborate on the greek equipment at the time and what they purchased?

They had pushed the Italians back. However the last Greek offensives failed to achieve the desired breakthroughs, because the Italian defenses were better organized, while the Greeks lacked the numbers to exploit breaches in the front and logistics started becoming a problem.

if i remember correctly, part of the reason the greeks failed breakthrough was because of the italian naval presence. i wonder if the italians had decisively lost the Battle of Calabria if that would have made a difference?


That may be tricky.
The British were already deeply involved in Greece by the time the Greeks were clearly on the winning side.
Greek "victory" in Albania was only clear in Janury 1941. By then the British had already agreed to take command of Crete (if I am not mistaken). Even if the British never landed forces into mainland Greece and the Italians decided to close a deal with the Greeks over Albania, there is a fair chance that the Germans would still intervene.

for what reason would germany intervene? if the british never sent troops then is no value for the germans to help since hitler was focusing on operation barbarossa.

The other way could be for Metaxes to make a slightly different call at the time, and demand a large British deployment up front before anything happens, which the British can't meet.

it would be interesting to see what could happen if the british could meet that demand :rolleyes:

The Brits not intervening in Greece is one of my favorite AH topics, because it leads to another POD as well... if the Brits aren't in Greece, then they stay in N. Africa and continue smashing the Italian empire there... hell, they were on the verge of winning everything there when Churchill stopped them and yanked out most of the troops to send to Greece...

i am not well versed about the north african campaigns, but if the british wiped out the italians in north africa then would the germans have not sent there infamous afrika korps over?
 

Hyperion

Banned
i am not well versed about the north african campaigns, but if the british wiped out the italians in north africa then would the germans have not sent there infamous afrika korps over?

If the British concentrated solely on North Africa to the point where they kick the Italians out of Libya, and possibly then got the French colonies in North Africa to switch sides and rejoin the fight, the Germans would have zero ability to deploy troops to North Africa.

Operation Compass, which the British launched in December 1940 was a massive success against the Italian army in Libya, taking over 100 thousand Italians prisoner, along with hundreds of tanks, cannons, and large amounts of equipment. It was the first major victory any of the allies ever had during the entire war.

Unfortunately, Churchill ended up pulling several divisions to go to Greece, along with large amounts of naval and air assets, which in the end did nothing to stop Greece from falling.

Come spring of 1941, the Germans showed up, and managed to push the weakened British forces back into Egypt.
 
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