WW2 Brit army AHC/WI: carbine and/or semi-auto and/or full auto

Simply make more Bren Guns and with chrome linings and sooner. When choosing a domestic SMG take the opportunity to go for something stronger than 9x19mm but weak enough to work as a simple blowback weapon. Say 9x25 as an example. The Mk4 worked fine as a bolt action rifle but a better SMG can make a better fit to a 2 Bren platoon. Forget pistols. Only a comforter and officer identifier to snipers. An easier cocking PIAT would cover many general HE tasks as well as AT and is useable for local indirect fire so could act as a mortar at close ranges down to platoon level. Oh yes; and self heating tins of tea. Add water and pull tab like self heating soup. Also decent sleeping bags. Seriously. The chaps will do better with actual sleep and hot tea on demand without a fire. There is no problem that cannot be solved with hot tea. If you can rustle up some biscuits too that would be ideal.
 
Simply make more Bren Guns and with chrome linings and sooner. When choosing a domestic SMG take the opportunity to go for something stronger than 9x19mm but weak enough to work as a simple blowback weapon. Say 9x25 as an example. The Mk4 worked fine as a bolt action rifle but a better SMG can make a better fit to a 2 Bren platoon. Forget pistols. Only a comforter and officer identifier to snipers. An easier cocking PIAT would cover many general HE tasks as well as AT and is useable for local indirect fire so could act as a mortar at close ranges down to platoon level. Oh yes; and self heating tins of tea. Add water and pull tab like self heating soup. Also decent sleeping bags. Seriously. The chaps will do better with actual sleep and hot tea on demand without a fire. There is no problem that cannot be solved with hot tea. If you can rustle up some biscuits too that would be ideal.

I am with you all the way apart from the sleeping bag. When I was starting out camping my Dad bought me an ex army sleeping bag. It weighed about as much as a small moon and packed down to about the same size.
 

Deleted member 1487

When choosing a domestic SMG take the opportunity to go for something stronger than 9x19mm but weak enough to work as a simple blowback weapon. Say 9x25 as an example.
The Hungarians required a level delay blowback with the 9x25mm. You'd need a low powered version to make it work with a simple blowback system or a really heavy bolt/spring.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't know much about ballistics etc, but I've got to ask. What is it with this boards obcession with

1 - Rimless cartriges
Easier feeding than a rimmed cartridge, plus it help avoid an excessive curvature of a magazine and allows more rounds for the same space.

2 - The 7mm round
It was better than the 7.62 caliber for an infantry rifle for a variety of reasons, was pretty well developed IOTL, and was an easy what if to implement with slightly different policy in the interwar period.
 

Deleted member 1487

Any chance the French might license their MAS-40 design to the Brits and the FM24/29? Or that the Brits might try and standardize with the French by adopting the 7.5x54 cartridge?
 
Any chance the French might license their MAS-40 design to the Brits and the FM24/29? Or that the Brits might try and standardize with the French by adopting the 7.5x54 cartridge?
I like the idea of Britain and France aligning their ammunition type as any major war would see them working together.
 
I don't see why the British couldn't have used M1 Carbines for rear eschelon troops, officers, etc.

The Americans had plenty of extras and could have made more.
 

Deleted member 1487

I don't see why the British couldn't have used M1 Carbines for rear eschelon troops, officers, etc.

The Americans had plenty of extras and could have made more.
By that logic the Brits could have had their entire small arms arsenal replaced by US weaponry to standardize supply. It would just presage what was coming when NATO arrives. But the problem is the US would have taken until about 1943 to maybe have enough to give Britain.
 
Did the Semi Automatic Rifle Board choose the wrong rifle. Well everyone knows the M1 was a heap of junk that nearly lost the war.....Oh no sorry I meant arguably the best rifle of the 20th century.
No, that was this
fn_fusil_automatique_leger__fn_fal__by_graphicamilitare-dcas23q.png


The Best 'M1' was by Beretta
55907dd043f8d861a351b60b7308ef7c.jpg
 
The Hungarians required a level delay blowback with the 9x25mm. You'd need a low powered version to make it work with a simple blowback system or a really heavy bolt/spring.

A small number of blowback sub machine guns used the 9x25 or had it as an option
MP34 (also known as the Soluthurn S1-100)
MP35
Beretta Mod38
SIG MKMO
 
By that logic the Brits could have had their entire small arms arsenal replaced by US weaponry to standardize supply. It would just presage what was coming when NATO arrives. But the problem is the US would have taken until about 1943 to maybe have enough to give Britain.


WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10
Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999
WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999
UEF - Underwood Elliot-Fisher November 1942 1449999
NPM - National Postal Meter January 1943 1549999
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. February 1943 1562519
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. June 1943 1662519
RMC - Rock-Ola Music Co. November 1942 1762519
SGGR - Saginaw Steering Gear (Grand Rapids) March 1943 1875039
IP - Irwin Pedersen March 1943 1875039
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. July 1943 1907519
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. July 1943 1937519
NPM - National Postal Meter October 1943 1982519
STDP - Standard Products March 1943 2099999
STDP - Standard Products September 1943 2219999

last number is ending serial number, so over 2M made by mid 1943
 

Deleted member 1487

A small number of blowback sub machine guns used the 9x25 or had it as an option
MP34 (also known as the Soluthurn S1-100)
MP35
Beretta Mod38
SIG MKMO
AFAIK they used less 'hot' rounds than the Hungarian one. Plus they were as heavy or heavier than most bolt action rifles. The SIG MKMO used a delayed blowback (hesitation lock they called it), which directly led to the Danuvia 39M. The Beretta Mod 38 is listed only as a 9x19mm weapon.

WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10
Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999
WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999
UEF - Underwood Elliot-Fisher November 1942 1449999
NPM - National Postal Meter January 1943 1549999
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. February 1943 1562519
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. June 1943 1662519
RMC - Rock-Ola Music Co. November 1942 1762519
SGGR - Saginaw Steering Gear (Grand Rapids) March 1943 1875039
IP - Irwin Pedersen March 1943 1875039
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. July 1943 1907519
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. July 1943 1937519
NPM - National Postal Meter October 1943 1982519
STDP - Standard Products March 1943 2099999
STDP - Standard Products September 1943 2219999

last number is ending serial number, so over 2M made by mid 1943
What was US military needs in the same period? Having made 2 million through 1943 doesn't mean there are spares for meeting all or even most of British needs. They could of course build up extra capacity, but at the expense of what else?
 
Last edited by a moderator:
WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. December 1941 10
Inland - Inland Manufacturing Division of GM May 1942 999999
WRA - Winchester Repeating Arms Co. September 1942 1349999
UEF - Underwood Elliot-Fisher November 1942 1449999
NPM - National Postal Meter January 1943 1549999
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. February 1943 1562519
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. June 1943 1662519
RMC - Rock-Ola Music Co. November 1942 1762519
SGGR - Saginaw Steering Gear (Grand Rapids) March 1943 1875039
IP - Irwin Pedersen March 1943 1875039
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. July 1943 1907519
QHMC - Quality Hardware & Machine Co. July 1943 1937519
NPM - National Postal Meter October 1943 1982519
STDP - Standard Products March 1943 2099999
STDP - Standard Products September 1943 2219999

last number is ending serial number, so over 2M made by mid 1943

Some US troops at torch (chemical '4.2' Mortar crews for example) where still armed with M1903s - the Marines at Guadalcanal were also still using M1903s - M1 Garand production only really caught up with the US Armys needs by 1943 and by then M1 Carbine (arguably the best US personal weapon of the war) was also in mass production and would exceed the M1 Garand in numbers.

There was little possibility of replacing the Lee Enfield as the Principle with the M1 unless it was built instead of the No4 Lee Enfield in British/Commonwealth Factory's
 
I'm not sure the British Empire would accept the overpowered .30-06 anyway. The Home Guard only did because that was what was available for use by a purely rear area force.
 
There was little possibility of replacing the Lee Enfield as the Principle with the M1 unless it was built instead of the No4 Lee Enfield in British/Commonwealth Factory's

As shown by the various makers who had never made a gun before, I think the UK could find a company to produce them, and doesn't need to be in 30 carbine. Could be in 9mm Mauser by Kynoch.
 
Some possibilities, each with it's own pros & cons:
- semi-auto in .303 (+ uses the readily available ammo, plenty of power; - it will be a bit heavy, has a lot of recoil) - sorta British SVT
- same, in 6.5x55 'Swedish Mauser' (+ it can be light, ammo if produced in vast quantities can be used for new-gen LMG, lower recoil; - new round need to be produced
- same, in '.303 Kurz' rimless (+ it will be light, with lighter ammo than normal .303, lower recoil; - new round, not for long-range) - sorta British SKS
- full-auto in either 6.5 Swedish or '.303 Kurz' - a pre-FG42 but more controllable or lighter; or pre-STg44
- carbine in equivalent of today's 7.5 FK or 9mm Dilon (+ far better beyond 100 m than a cheap SMG, - new ammo, gun will be more expensive than SMG)
 
Just compare the cost in material, time, machinery and skilled labour between a Sten and an M1 carbine. Having tried both I would go with the Sten anyway. The essence of the Sten is that it did not use the arms industry which had been flat out already. It used literally hundreds of small subcontractors in garages and sheds. They cannot make an M1 Carbine and no one else can be spared to make it. All the lend lease stuff had to go back to the USA after the war but Britain still had a large army to equip. Look at British armour after 1945. No Shermans, no Staghounds, no Stuarts. The FAA without Martlets, Corsairs, Gannets or Tarpons. The RAF without Liberators, Catalinas, Bostons, Baltimores, Mustangs, Thunderbolts, Mitchells or Marauders. Everything American went back to US ownership. Only a few key items were retained and they had to be paid for in dollars. These were all on loan, not gift. The UK was still paying off the costs to the USA of WW2 in 2005 and WW1 only 4 years ago. There was a good reason to equipping British forces with domestic weapons.
 
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