ww2 AHC: ideal SMG

You know the drill - how shoud the best-possible/ideal submachine gun for the armed forces of ww2 looked like? The desirable characteristics include manageable weight & bulk, resonable controlability & accuracy when firing bursts, suitability for mass production etc. You can 'invent' a new cartridge, or use an existing cartridge from post-ww2, for best compromise between muzzle velocity and bullet weight.

Owen chambered for 9mm Mauser Export.
 

Deleted member 1487

Simple blowback sistem for SMGs is advantage, not disadvantage. Gives you automatic fire ona budget, provided the cartridge used is not overpowered. The 43M needed the delayed blowback since it used the more powerful 9x25 cartridge - the simple blowback will not cut it. The M1/M2 carbine was also too powerful for simple blowback.
I'd again say that .22 Spitfire on the M2 carbine is a very good idea.
https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a21631/forgotten-weapons-americas-first-assault-rifle/
Simple blowback with a more powerful round than the 9mm export, which was no more powerful than a .357 magnum round.

123 gr/8g bullet for the 6.5 CBJ is a subsonic bullet, the Tokarev was almost 1.5 Mach. I certainly don't advocate it, and I would not use such a heavy bullet for the necked down 9mm or 7.62 Tokarev, but someting at ~60-70 gr/ with MV of 650-600 m/s.
Again, the variations of the .30 Carbine are good things, but not for SMG due to being too powerful.
The Tokarev was not really known for it's wounding power, tended to over penetrate at normal range:
https://thefiringline.com/forums/showthread.php?t=505612
It's similar to, but hotter than the old 7.63 Mauser round which had a reputation for being a pretty good stopper IF the bullet hit bone on the way in. If that happened, the resulting secondary fragments of bone, together with the bullet did a real number on the target. Otherwise, it's like any other FMJ round. In & out, not much of a wound channel to speak of.

The Germans called it the Russian Icepick during WW II because it tended to make straight through and through wounds, as if the person had been stabbed.


If you want a shorter range SMG that is simple, a 125 grain 9mm was pretty standard, so a 112 grain aerodynamic round designed to tumble will be fast, hold energy better, and wound/kill better. 60-70 grain at 600mps isn't really going to do more than ice pick unless it is designed to fragment or is long and light to tumble.
 
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https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/a21631/forgotten-weapons-americas-first-assault-rifle/
Simple blowback with a more powerful round than the 9mm export, which was no more powerful than a .357 magnum round.

If we want a heavy bolt, powerful & heavy spring, long and heavy barrel and receiver (so kick of the recoiling bolt is amortized), with rifle-sized buttstock on a 'SMG' that is 4 ft long and 10 lb heavy empty, then yes, open bolt can work with a cartridge more powerful than .45 ACP.
In the same time, there is the M2 Carbine, that weights 5 lbs, and can do anything the 10 lb M1917 does, being also 1 ft shorter and where a light and/or folded stock work.
Or the Avtomat Fedorova, again 10 lb heavy, but useful at twice the range the M1917 was.


The Tokarev was not really known for it's wounding power, tended to over penetrate at normal range.

If you want a shorter range SMG that is simple, a 125 grain 9mm was pretty standard, so a 112 grain aerodynamic round designed to tumble will be fast, hold energy better, and wound/kill better. 60-70 grain at 600mps isn't really going to do more than ice pick unless it is designed to fragment or is long and light to tumble.

The .22 Spitfire was also not known for it's wounding power, and it will certainly overpenetrate on too close ranges ;)
I don't want a shorter range SMG, but a bit longer-ranged than the vast majority of the ww2 SMGs. The 60-70 gr bullet @ 650-600 m/s will be about 50% more powerful than the .22 Winchester Magnum, and intention is to let fly 5-10 of those on a human target, not just a single bullet.
 

Deleted member 1487

If we want a heavy bolt, powerful & heavy spring, long and heavy barrel and receiver (so kick of the recoiling bolt is amortized), with rifle-sized buttstock on a 'SMG' that is 4 ft long and 10 lb heavy empty, then yes, open bolt can work with a cartridge more powerful than .45 ACP.
In the same time, there is the M2 Carbine, that weights 5 lbs, and can do anything the 10 lb M1917 does, being also 1 ft shorter and where a light and/or folded stock work.
Or the Avtomat Fedorova, again 10 lb heavy, but useful at twice the range the M1917 was.
Sure, by having a gas piston system. Use my direct impingement idea and it is lighter than an MP40 or PPSH41, while having a lighter bolt to boot. Not as simple, but lighter is a pretty big boon even though the recoil is more perceptible. The issue is the M2 Carbine is not controllable in automatic fire, so you either need a lighter bullet or a heavier gun.

The Avtomat was an auto-rifle, comparable to a BAR and far outside the scope of this discussion. It is also far more expensive and complex than the BLMR.


The .22 Spitfire was also not known for it's wounding power, and it will certainly overpenetrate on too close ranges ;)
Since the 5.56mm round's primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation, it actually will, like the 5.56x45mm bullet, tumbled and fragment at close range.
M16_5.56x45mm_wound_ballistics.gif


I don't want a shorter range SMG, but a bit longer-ranged than the vast majority of the ww2 SMGs. The 60-70 gr bullet @ 650-600 m/s will be about 50% more powerful than the .22 Winchester Magnum, and intention is to let fly 5-10 of those on a human target, not just a single bullet.
That's burning through a lot of ammo quickly. At that point it sounds like you're making an assault rifle cartridge too...;)
 
Sure, by having a gas piston system. Use my direct impingement idea and it is lighter than an MP40 or PPSH41, while having a lighter bolt to boot. Not as simple, but lighter is a pretty big boon even though the recoil is more perceptible. The issue is the M2 Carbine is not controllable in automatic fire, so you either need a lighter bullet or a heavier gun.

It is not proved anywhere that M2 Carbine is not controlable in automatic fire. The Gun Jesus says that controlability is better than on most of SMGs. Granted, lighter bullet = less recoil, the compensator/muzzle brake can be added, plus it would've better if it was outfitted with one or both pistol grips.
I was under impression that direct impignement idea pre-dates you ;)

The Avtomat was an auto-rifle, comparable to a BAR and far outside the scope of this discussion. It is also far more expensive and complex than the BLMR.

There ain't such thing as free lunch.

Since the 5.56mm round's primary wounding mechanism is fragmentation, it actually will, like the 5.56x45mm bullet, tumbled and fragment at close range.
That's burning through a lot of ammo quickly. At that point it sounds like you're making an assault rifle cartridge too...;)

SMGs were, for 95% of shooters, spray and pray machines. With lighter bullets, that fly flatter, at least the 'spray' part will have better chances to hit something.
I'm not trying to make an assault rifle cartridge.
 
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My vote goes for the Sterling. The only thing wrong with it is it's over engineered stock folding problem, which can easily result in bruised fingers. For style and panache it's the Lanchester, got to love it's great big lump of brass magazine receiver to polish, and that 50 round magazine! Pure nuts.
 

Deleted member 1487

It is not proved anywhere that M2 Carbine is not controlable in automatic fire. The Gun Jesus says that controlability is better than on most of SMGs. Granted, lighter bullet = less recoil, the compensator/muzzle brake can be added, plus it would've better if it was outfitted with one or both pistol grips.
He says it is somewhat difficult to control actually:

I'd say with a muzzle device and a heavier gun in 110 .30 Carbine it would be more controllable.

Does this work for ya?
01152016-001.jpg

I was under impression that direct impignement idea pre-dates you ;)
Not applied to an SMG AFAIK. The AR-15 and derivatives are expanding gas systems, not DI BTW.

There ain't such thing as free lunch.
That is a massive understatement with the Federov. Better go with an FG42 with a light loaded cartridge.

SMGs were, for 95% of shooters, spray and pray machines.
Not at all. Every manual tells you to fire in short bursts and retrain control over the weapon:

With lighter bullets, that fly flatter, at least the 'spray' part will have better chances to hit something.
I'm not trying to make an assault rifle cartridge.

Gun Jesus says the M2 Carbine falls right in between. Might be what you should go for with a muzzle device.
 

FBKampfer

Banned
M/45 in 9x25 mm mauser. and with a front hand grip.

Cheap, reliable, easy to field strip, accurate, and in mauser export, it'll have 300m legs.
 
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