WW2 after a Nazi victory in Russia

It depends on how and when Germany defeat the USSR. The crucial point, as mentioned, is the Caucaus.
Can Germany keep it, or get the oil through a rump Soviet republic proxy?
Did Hitler declare war in the USA, giving the Americans a free hand in attacking Germany anywhere they can? Or he didn't, so the USA can't invade the Caucaus from Persia, or otherwise attack Germany?

As for the air war, IITL Germany will have access to strategic materials to build better jet engines, it won't have fighters deployed (and lost) in the East, it won't expend fuel to fight the USSR, it might also get the oil from the Caucaus, it won't need to replace looses in the Eastern front, it won't need to use 88mm guns for the antitank role, etc.
There is just no way the American air offensive (if there is one, since this is an ATL, Hitler might not declare war on the USA) will be as effective (or ineffective, depending your sources) as it was IOTL.

If the armistice is in 1942 and the USA and Germany aren't at war, I can see Britain and Germany eventually signing a cease fire.
 
If the United States is in the war, then by 1945 or 1946, it will pick a location (Normandy, Pas-de-Calais, Persia, wherever), attack, and - eventually - win. Germany can not win against the US, not under Nazi leadership.

If Hitler does not declare war against America, then America will eventually declare war on him. Again, America wins - eventually.

America has too many - far too many - strategic advantages not to win, and Germany has a real problem with resources. It may be a horrific slaughter on par (for Europe at least) with a zombie apocalypse novel, but America will eventually win.
 
If Hitler does not declare war against America, then America will eventually declare war on him. Again, America wins - eventually.
How? The USA wasn't a dictatorship where the president could go to war whenever and wherever he wanted. Roosvelt needed to Congress to declare war, and if Hitler doesn't declare war, the American Congress might very well refrain from declaring war against Germany.
 
Well, usa will still fight the japanese, so, due to the stalemate to the west, britain could try to help them for securising the dutch indies and french indo-china (later gave it back to free france). And stock pile ressources and weaponry, does air raid to cripple the german empire.

But someday, after the defeat of japan, germany may propose a peace.
 
It depends on how and when Germany defeat the USSR. The crucial point, as mentioned, is the Caucaus.
Can Germany keep it, or get the oil through a rump Soviet republic proxy?
Did Hitler declare war in the USA, giving the Americans a free hand in attacking Germany anywhere they can? Or he didn't, so the USA can't invade the Caucaus from Persia, or otherwise attack Germany?

As for the air war, IITL Germany will have access to strategic materials to build better jet engines, it won't have fighters deployed (and lost) in the East, it won't expend fuel to fight the USSR, it might also get the oil from the Caucaus, it won't need to replace looses in the Eastern front, it won't need to use 88mm guns for the antitank role, etc.
There is just no way the American air offensive (if there is one, since this is an ATL, Hitler might not declare war on the USA) will be as effective (or ineffective, depending your sources) as it was IOTL.

If the armistice is in 1942 and the USA and Germany aren't at war, I can see Britain and Germany eventually signing a cease fire.

The US and Britain will contest the Caucasus to deny it from the Germans (The US Army had plans to expand logistics in Persia to support operations there in 1942), meaning that no fuel is gained.

You refer to "strategic materials" provided by the USSR, when in reality the USSR proved to be a wholly unproductive venture aside from forced labor. Most of Germany's expanded coal production came from its own old coal pits, not the Donbas or Ukraine. Steel production was likewise mostly increased due to domestic improvements; the loss of key regions of the Ukraine put only a temporary dent in steel production compared to the crippling effects of Allied bombing in the Ruhr. Further, "jet engines" aren't a magical solution. Just the opposite, the Me-262 was an inferior aircraft to Allied designs; a white elephant. One of the many pursued by the Luftwaffe.

Transfers from the East will only provide a temporary solution for the problems the Luftwaffe suffered, which it simply lacked the time to solve. It's also absurd to assume Hitler would focus resources on Luftwaffe Reich when IOTL he was only willing to do so when it was already in a crisis. He's far more likely, as I pointed out above, to waste the Luftwaffe away on peripheral operations which he'll be unwilling to cancel. At the same time he would move not to mobilize, but instead demobilize the economy as happened after the campaign in France. Resource commitments to wartime industries would be greatly reduced. By the time the error of this strategy became clear the USAAF would have tripled in size. Germany and the Luftwaffe would then be doomed.

How? The USA wasn't a dictatorship where the president could go to war whenever and wherever he wanted. Roosvelt needed to Congress to declare war, and if Hitler doesn't declare war, the American Congress might very well refrain from declaring war against Germany.

The U-Boat campaign in the Atlantic was already a quasi war between the US and Germany, with US vessels escorting British convoys and the US supplying Britain via lend lease. Hitler decided to simplify the situation and declare war in concert with Japan. With the USSR defeated and Hitler's confidence in his "genius" even greater, he will be even more eager to turn up the hostilities in the Atlantic, or simply declare war outright. This would provoke a US declaration by mid 1942.
 
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The key factor will be what type of 'victory" is achieved in Russia. Total German victory in 1941 prior to Pearl Harbor might lead to another round of pursuit of an armistice in the west for the cost of victory in the east would require a period of consolidation. Victory in 1942-43 with a hot war in the west would likely lead to eventual defeat in the west assuming the allies were willing to pay the price on the ground for victory. Key is not declaring war on the USA for American public opinion would make it hard for the USA to partner with Britain on keeping the Germans out of the Caucasus', with a hot war with Japan in the Pacific.
 
The key factor will be what type of 'victory" is achieved in Russia. Total German victory in 1941 prior to Pearl Harbor might lead to another round of pursuit of an armistice in the west for the cost of victory in the east would require a period of consolidation. Victory in 1942-43 with a hot war in the west would likely lead to eventual defeat in the west assuming the allies were willing to pay the price on the ground for victory. Key is not declaring war on the USA for American public opinion would make it hard for the USA to partner with Britain on keeping the Germans out of the Caucasus', with a hot war with Japan in the Pacific.

Actually the American public was very much in favor of seeing Germany defeated; the real debate was how much America should become involved for that to be achieved. Germany is unlikely to try to make peace in the west; Hitler was committed to seeing Britain make peace on his terms, not negotiations. Further, the defeat of the Soviet Union would not be a morale blow to the Allies as the prevailing opinion was that it would be quickly defeated. Rather it would only strengthen support in the US for direct involvement.
 
The US and Britain will contest the Caucasus to deny it from the Germans (The US Army had plans to expand logistics in Persia to support operations there in 1942), meaning that no fuel is gained.
Britain would try to stretch their resources through the logistical nightmare of Persia to try to contest the Caucasus to Germany or a rump Soviet proxy. If they can do it or not depends on how Germany defeats the USSR.
The USA might join if Germany declares war on them because the American Congress was unwilling to declare war and, should Germany avoid the declaration of war after Pearl, public opinion (and reality) might force the USA to focus in the Pacific.
You refer to "strategic materials" provided by the USSR, when in reality the USSR proved to be a wholly unproductive venture aside from forced labor. Most of Germany's expanded coal production came from its own old coal pits, not the Donbas or Ukraine. Steel production was likewise mostly increased due to domestic improvements; the loss of key regions of the Ukraine put only a temporary dent in steel production compared to the crippling effects of Allied bombing in the Ruhr. Further, "jet engines" aren't a magical solution. Just the opposite, the Me-262 was an inferior aircraft to Allied designs; a white elephant. One of the many pursued by the Luftwaffe.
And yet they've plundered the rest of Europe to the bone, making extensive use, for instance, of Czech and French industries and material. Raw materials can be obtained through slave labor in occupied territories or as payments required by the hypothetical peace treaty.
I also don't know which comparable allied WWII design you're comparing the Me-262 with. The allies didn't field any jet fighter during WWII and the design which came close was slower, carried lighter weapons and lacked features like a swept wing. The Me-262 suffered from unreliable engines, due the lack of metals which can be obtained through a peace deal with the USSR. On top, Meteors and Me-262 would be unlikely to engage in combat against each other except over Northwestern France, due range constraints. And the introduction of numerous, reliable, jet interceptors is certainly going to cause bigger casualties to the USAAF. Throw in more fighters and AAA overall, since they aren't needed in the Eastern Front and, should the USA go to war, they will be facing increased casualties.

Transfers from the East will only provide a temporary solution for the problems the Luftwaffe suffered, which it simply lacked the time to solve. It's also absurd to assume Hitler would focus resources on Luftwaffe Reich when IOTL he was only willing to do so when it was already in a crisis. He's far more likely, as I pointed out above, to waste the Luftwaffe away on peripheral operations which he'll be unwilling to cancel. At the same time he would move not to mobilize, but instead demobilize the economy as happened after the campaign in France. Resource commitments to wartime industries would be greatly reduced. By the time the error of this strategy became clear the USAAF would have tripled in size. Germany and the Luftwaffe would then be doomed.
Or he would have ordered the Luftwaffe to increase production of bombers believing a stronger Blitz can bring Britain to the negotiating table. It doesn't improve the number of fighters, but it doesn't demobilize the economy either.

The U-Boat campaign in the Atlantic was already a quasi war between the US and Germany, with US vessels escorting British convoys and the US supplying Britain via lend lease. Hitler decided to simplify the situation and declare war in concert with Japan. With the USSR defeated and Hitler's confidence in his "genius" even greater, he will be even more eager to turn up the hostilities in the Atlantic, or simply declare war outright. This would provoke a US declaration by mid 1942.
Or he might think the Battle of the Atlantic isn't that critical now that the USSR has been defeated and try to avoid confrontation with the USA. Britain would never sit to negotiate if the USA is also at war, but it might if she stands alone.

We can think about Hitler's declaration of war IOTL as the grievous mistake of a madman. Or we might think it as a calculated gamble which might have payed off with a Japanese declaration of war against the USSR and allows the Kriegsmarine free reign to hunt American shipping while the Wehrmacht finishes off the USSR, since the USA wouldn't be ready to attack Germany in force until after the timeframe in which Hitler wrongly believed he could subdue the USSR.
 
Britain would try to stretch their resources through the logistical nightmare of Persia to try to contest the Caucasus to Germany or a rump Soviet proxy. If they can do it or not depends on how Germany defeats the USSR.
The USA might join if Germany declares war on them because the American Congress was unwilling to declare war and, should Germany avoid the declaration of war after Pearl, public opinion (and reality) might force the USA to focus in the Pacific.
And yet they've plundered the rest of Europe to the bone, making extensive use, for instance, of Czech and French industries and material. Raw materials can be obtained through slave labor in occupied territories or as payments required by the hypothetical peace treaty.
I also don't know which comparable allied WWII design you're comparing the Me-262 with. The allies didn't field any jet fighter during WWII and the design which came close was slower, carried lighter weapons and lacked features like a swept wing. The Me-262 suffered from unreliable engines, due the lack of metals which can be obtained through a peace deal with the USSR. On top, Meteors and Me-262 would be unlikely to engage in combat against each other except over Northwestern France, due range constraints. And the introduction of numerous, reliable, jet interceptors is certainly going to cause bigger casualties to the USAAF. Throw in more fighters and AAA overall, since they aren't needed in the Eastern Front and, should the USA go to war, they will be facing increased casualties.

Or he would have ordered the Luftwaffe to increase production of bombers believing a stronger Blitz can bring Britain to the negotiating table. It doesn't improve the number of fighters, but it doesn't demobilize the economy either.

Or he might think the Battle of the Atlantic isn't that critical now that the USSR has been defeated and try to avoid confrontation with the USA. Britain would never sit to negotiate if the USA is also at war, but it might if she stands alone.

We can think about Hitler's declaration of war IOTL as the grievous mistake of a madman. Or we might think it as a calculated gamble which might have payed off with a Japanese declaration of war against the USSR and allows the Kriegsmarine free reign to hunt American shipping while the Wehrmacht finishes off the USSR, since the USA wouldn't be ready to attack Germany in force until after the timeframe in which Hitler wrongly believed he could subdue the USSR.

Actually the US public was very much in favor of seeing Germany defeated; the question was always how much it should become involved in the war to see that accomplished. By 1941 the US was engaged in a quasi war in the Atlantic with Germany, escorting British convoys, and bankrolling its war effort. Hitler recognized this and in his mind decided to simplify the situation. If he hadn't increased conflict in the Atlantic would lead to an eventual declaration from one side or the other; especially as America would now be at war with one of Germany's allies, and Germany with one of America's.

You're correct that Germany plundered labor and industry from occupied nations (Though what it could gain was hampered by chronic coal shortages) but fail to miss the point I was making; that what it could gain from the Soviet Union would bring it no great boon. As I stated above, Germany steel production increases were mainly domestic in nature, albeit amplified by foreign output. Thus its steel, fuel, and coal industries remain just as vulnerable to Allied bombing.

You have a rather confused understanding about both the history of the Me-262, its problems, its performance, and the Allied bombing effort. Firstly delays in production and deployment had as much to do with the decision in 1942 to focus production on old models of fighter aircraft rather than adjusting factories for a number of newer models. This was further hampered by competition and factionalism within the Luftwaffe and German industry, along with Hitler's obstinacy in demanding the aircraft be deployed as a fighter-bomber, a problem that will only be amplified by his victory in the East. Technical problems in the aircraft had their basis in design problems that occurred long before the war and continued throughout it, though poor materials did cause problems later in the war. Its actual performance during the war is questionable (Achieving good kill rates in a few engagements, yet failing to perform as a magical war winner), and it will inevitably be hampered by problems in pilot training, and lack of fuel as the oil campaign gets underway. If it does somehow end up being deployed in significant numbers, Allied designs will be deployed in turn to counter it; the Shooting Star was a superior aircraft, well rounded, and had the range for escort and air superiority missions.

Germany's economic strategy from 1940-1941 was not merely to, as you say, "increase production of bombers"; it was an intense campaign of manpower and production management designed to prepare the army for war with the Soviet Union while preventing major economic disruption; in effect it was a campaign of rationalization and organization, as opposed to attempting to maximize production. Thus investments of steel and expansion of the labor force was only enough to meet expanded demand for a short war. This shouldn't be confused with meaning that Germany was under mobilized; indeed, by 1943 it was fully relying on new foreign workers to support itself. But the amount of resources and labor invested into army and Luftwaffe armaments were far less than what they should have been. This all ties together with Hitler's insistence upon maintaining good conditions on the home front, which he was only willing to cut when the nation was already in crisis. This occurred after Moscow in winter 41-42 and in summer 1944 when, previously resistant to actual implementing total war measures (A desperate gasp that kept Germany going for another 8 months), he suddenly shifted in attitude following the July 20th plot and fully approved them. With Germany victorious over its primary foe it's entirely likely that Hitler will step off Heer armament production and, rather than as you claim redirect it to the Luftwaffe (Unlikely given the clearly divided spheres of power between Milch and Speer), utilize it for domestic concerns.

Finally, you misunderstand Hitler and Nazi Germany's mentality in regards to the United States and Britain. Firstly, the economic purpose of the war with the Soviet Union was to acquire food, living space, etc to allow Germany to compete on a global scale with its principle rivals. The U-Boat war was an important part of this by allowing Germany to strangle Britain's economy and then overcome it. Hitler disregarded the US and didn't believe it to be a major threat; indeed, the declaration of war on the US was a decision to bring the war into the open. It allowed Germany to carry out unrestricted submarine war freely on a scale Hitler believed could be supported by its continental empire, and forced the US to fight a two front war which Hitler believed it could not win (And soon expected to only be fighting a single front war himself). There are very clear historical reasons for these events.

My main sources are Strategy for Defeat, Kershaw's Fateful Choices/The End, and a couple of Overy's books. Wages of Destruction was also used, though with proper fact checking. Internet research also proved useful.
 
The problem with a German victory in the east is that it requires making sacrifices elsewhere, you'd have to give up on North Africa, and stop wasting resources on Britain, which gives the Western Allies something of a boost in the 1941-42 period.
 

CalBear

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For the Reich to defeat the USSR is a REALLY tough scenario to construct. I spend a considerable amount of time trying to come up with one before my T/L and I am still not entirely satisfied with the scenario I used. There is simply too much ground for the Heer to cover, not just in depth of advance but also in the breadth of front. A force entering the USSR had to constantly increase the width of its front due to the "funnel" shape of the European continent.

For the Heer to manage it in the 5 1/2 months between the start of the Great Patriotic War and the Japanese attack on Pearl and the the DEI is almost impossible. That means you will have the U.S. involved before the Soviets could be defeated (assuming that can be done). If you have the U.S. in the War along with the UK and Commonwealth, long term the Reich is done. It might not go exactly like I speculated, but the math simply makes the ending inevitable.
 
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