ww1: the scandinavian front

[Askanas]

Norway is pretty easy to defend and it lies between Russia and Brittain, compared to whom Sweden is a poor dwarf. Being friends with them is much more valueble than with Sweden. Allthought there wher no big anti-German sentiments in Noway before the unrestricted submarine warfare, they will join the Entente if Brittain and Russia ask them. Economic pressure could also bring Norway to join.

Essen attacking Sweden ist ceratainly the best POD, allthougt Luxburg affair could also escalate and bring Sweden in the war.

 

[Mikestone8]

Norway is pretty easy to defend and it lies between Russia and Brittain, compared to whom Sweden is a poor dwarf. Being friends with them is much more valueble than with Sweden. Allthought there wher no big anti-German sentiments in Noway before the unrestricted submarine warfare, they will join the Entente if Brittain and Russia ask them. Economic pressure could also bring Norway to join.

Essen attacking Sweden ist ceratainly the best POD, allthougt Luxburg affair could also escalate and bring Sweden in the war.

Yet Norway - despite the grossest provocation from German u-boats over the past three years - did not declare war even in late 1918, when it could have done so with perfect safety. So it's hardly likely to in 1914 when the Russian army is in Galicia and the British one committed to France, so that it knows there will be no help.

And if Britain had so much influence why did she not get Norway into the war OTL? With Sweden neutral the risk would have been minimal, and Norwegian ports would have come in handy for the RN.

 

[Wendell]

Getting Norway into the war would effectively preclude Sweden from joining and vice versa.

 

[Mikestone8]

What were the Swedish army and navy like in 1914?

Assuming Sweden does come in (courtesy of Admiral Essen) and Norway does not, what is Sweden immediately capable of doing against Russia? Any chance they grab the Estonian offshore islands, or are those too well defended? Or can they land an army in Finland?

 

[Fabilius]

Yes
filler

Ehm... You have to explain... I don´t get it. I´m pretty sure you´re knowledgeable, being norwegian and all but I have difficulty understanding how Britain could have so much power over Norway. Okay, they are the main trading partner and the most powerful country at the time but Norway has national interests, is a democracy that has representatives of people not inclined to go to war with Sweden nor amorous with Britain. How could Britain force Norway to war, boycotting? Invading? (Hardly seems sensible).

 

[elkarlo]

Guess if the blockading got rough, and the British pushed their luck too hard inspecting Swedish ships, they might get a declaration of war. ESp if they hurt the econ too much. As they were doing in OTL, but just a bit more.

 

[stjernkjempe]

What were the Swedish army and navy like in 1914?

Naval records of period befor 1920 i fond, I think all ships in service befor 1914 could be acountend in the fleet in beeing but ships listed as being in service from 1914 might not be avaiable befor 1915 etc... (exuse my spelling)

Topedo cruisers
HMS Hugin (1884)

HMS Komet (1896-1916),

HMS Blixt (1898-1921),
HMS Meteor (1899-1921),
HMS Stjärna (1899-1921),
HMS Orkan (1900-1921),
HMS Bris (1900-1921),
HMS Vind (1900-1921),
HMS Virgo (1902-1921),
HMS Mira (1902)-1921),
HMS Orion (1903-1921),
HMS Sirius (1903-1921),
HMS Kapella (1904-1921),

HMS Plejad (1905-1926),
HMS Iris (1909-1928),
HMS Thetis (1909-1928),
HMS Spica (1908-1928),
HMS Astrea (1909-1928),
HMS Antares (1909-1928),
HMS Arcturus (1909-1928),
HMS Altair (1909-1928),
HMS Argo (1909-1928),
HMS Polaris (1910-1928),
HMS Perseus (1910-1928),
HMS Regulus (1910-1928),
HMS Rigel (1910-1928),
HMS Kastor (1909-1928),
HMS Pollux (1909-1928),
HMS Vega, (1911-1928)
HMS Vesta (1911-1928),
HMS Rolf (1880)
HMS Seid (1882)
HMS Galdr (1885)
HMS Narf (1886)
HMS Nörve (1886)
HMS Bygve (1888)
HMS Bylgia (1888)
HMS Agda (1891)
HMS Agne (1891)
No 79 (1902)
No 81 (1902)

Minelayers

Blink (1880)
Blixt (1882)

Minesweepers

HMS Sökaren (1916)
HMS Sveparen (1917)
HMS Sprängaren (1918)

Submarines

HMS Hajen (1904)
HMS Hvalen 1909
HMS Undervattensbåten N:r 2 (1909)
HMS Undervattensbåten N:r 3 (1909)
HMS Undervattensbåten N:r 4 (1909)
HMS Laxen (1914)
HMS Gäddan (1915)
HMS Svärdfisken (1914)
HMS Tumlaren (1914)
HMS Delfinen (1914)
HMS Abborren (1916)
HMS Braxen (1916)
HMS Sälen (1918)
HMS Illern (1918)
HMS Uttern (1918)

Destroyers

HMS Hugin (1910)
HMS Magne (1905)
HMS Mode (1902)
HMS Munin (1911)
HMS Ragnar (1908)
HMS Sigurd (1908)
HMS Vidar (1909)
HMS Wale (1907)
HMS Wachtmeister (1917)
HMS Wrangel (1917)

Minenkreuzer

HMS Clas Fleming (1914-1959)

Armored cruiser

HMS Fylgia (1907-1953)

Torpedo gunboat

HMS Claes Horn (1898-1923)
HMS Claes Uggla (1900-1917)
HMS Jacob Bagge (1898-1947)
HMS Psilander (1900-1937)
HMS Örnen (1897-1947)

Coastal defence ship

HMS Svea (1885-1915)
HMS Göta (1889-1923)
HMS Thule (1893-1923)
HMS Oden (1896-1937)
HMS Niord (1898-1922)
HMS Thor (1898-1937)
HMS Dristigheten (1900-1947)
HMS Äran (1901-1947)
HMS Tapperheten (1901-1947)
HMS Wasa (1901-1940)
HMS Manligheten (1903-1950)
HMS Oscar II (1905-1950)
HMS Sverige (1915-1953)
HMS Drottning Victoria (1917-1957)
HMS Gustav V (1918-1957)

Corvette

HMS Jarramas
HMS Carlskrona (1841)
HMS Lagerbielke
HMS Najaden (1834)
HMS Orädd
HMS Svalan
HMS Gefle
HMS Thor (1841)
HMS Orädd (1853)
HMS Balder
HMS Saga
HMS Freja
HMS Valkyrian (1852)
HMS Stockholm (1856)
HMS Carl XIV Johan (1824)
HMS Vanadis (1862)

Gunboat

HMS Alfhild
HMS Aslög
HMS Astrid
HMS Blenda
HMS Carlsund
HMS Disa (1877)
HMS Edda
HMS Gunhild
HMS Hogland
HMS Ingegerd
HMS Motala
HMS Rota
HMS Sigrid
HMS Skagul
HMS Skuld
HMS Skäggald
HMS Svensksund (1856)
HMS Svensksund (1891)
HMS Urd
HMS Verdande
HMS von Sydow

Monitor (warship)

HMS John Ericsson (1865)
HMS Tordön (1865)
HMS Tirfing (1866)
HMS Loke
HMS Björn
HMS Berserk
HMS Folke
HMS Sölve
HMS Ulf
HMS Hildur
HMS Gerda
HMS Sköld
HMS Fenris
HMS Garmer

Sailing ship

HMS af Chapman ex.G. D. Kennedy (1888)
HMS Falken (1877)
HMS Falken (1947)
HMS Gladan (1857)
HMS Gladan (1946)
HMS Jarramas (1900)
HMS Najaden (1897]
HMS Vanadis (1869)

 

[Oddball]

Ehm... You have to explain...

Sigh, ok then.
Since its you who are asking...

Basicaly it comes down to the fact that Norway was between a rock and a hard place. GB was THE guarantist for Norwegian indepencence. Without GB, Norway is ripe for picking. And the Norwegian government knew it (and adhered to it).

Even more basic:
Norway does as GB says and have a chance. Defy GB and Norway loose it all. This was Norwegian foreign policy OTL from 1905 to 1948!!!

Just look at OTL ww1. There is a reason for Norway beeing called "The Neutral Allied." For all the purposes GB needed it, Norway participated. Do you think Norway did this because we benefited to? The only reason Norway stayed "neutral" was that GB realy did not need that last straw. Had GB wanted it, she would have got it.

 

[UrbanRedneck]

The British could have invaded neutral Denmark with the hope of opening a back door to Germany. Once they control the straights the British navy could attack anywhere on the German coast.

 

[Askanas]

The Armén had 6 divisions, 6 reserve divisions, 1 cavalry division, together 220 000 men. The Landstorm counted 170 000 men.

Yet Norway - despite the grossest provocation from German u-boats over the past three years - did not declare war even in late 1918, when it could have done so with perfect safety.

Yes, they could do, but had absolutely no reason to do so. Openly declaring war will only increase German attacks on Norwegian ships, the had to mobilise, so more money spended to the military plus less people doing their ordinary work and so on. And that wile the biggest nations on earth where fighting Germany for free. They could better just sit back and enjoy the show, which they did OTL. But if the Entente asks, they could negotiate comfortable trade conditions financial support, british soldiers and so on.

So it's hardly likely to in 1914 when the Russian army is in Galicia and the British one committed to France, so that it knows there will be no help.

Indeed, even if Sweden joins the CP by 1914, Norway joining the Entente would only make sense after the start of the unrestricted submarine warfare.

And if Britain had so much influence why did she not get Norway into the war OTL? With Sweden neutral the risk would have been minimal, and Norwegian ports would have come in handy for the RN.

They didn't realy try to OTL. The executed operations against Gallipoli, Mesopotamia, Tanganyika, Palestine and Greece, instead of Scandinavia. After the American war entry the considered to place the US-Fleet in Norway, but it was nothing more than a suggestion when Germany collapsed. After that, ist was no longer needed.

 

[Daylight Savings]

So let's go on the assumption that Essen attacks the Swedish navy and brings them into the war and Norway following the UK's wishes opens a second front against the Swedes in the hopes of keeping them from drawing too much Russian manpower from the German front. How does Norway fare? Are they overrun? Can they set up a defensive line that holds? Will will there be a sort of phony war where both sides are nominally at war but neither really wants to fight?

 

[chris N]

Not likely to happen. Norway had no desire to go to war. It remembered the Kindness that Kaiser Wilhelm had shown them when a fire destroyed a major part of one of their cities. The Kaiser had sent help in the form of experts money and equipment from Germany that helped to rebuild it. It thus had no desire to fight either the Germans or the Swedes. The British public was not about to support the invasion of either peaceful Norway or Denmark. It would also create a lot of problems with the US as well as creating more enemies for the allies.

 

[Mikestone8]

Incidentally, during the Winter War of 1939/40 Britain and France wanted to send troops through Norway and Sweden to assist the Finns against the SU. Both countries firmly refused. So evidently Norway didn't automatically come running when Britain whistled.

 

[anon_user]

Assuming Swedish entry into World War I on the side of the Central Powers in 1914...
If Gallipoli were rejected (for whatever reason), would it be possible to see some of the forces involved in that campaign in OTL being sent to open up a second front against Sweden via Norway? How might such a campaign have gone?

 

[Timmy811]

The British could have invaded neutral Denmark with the hope of opening a back door to Germany. Once they control the straights the British navy could attack anywhere on the German coast.

There's no possible way they could have seized Denmark. The Germans would have crushed any force that the British managed to land there.

 

[Mikestone8]

Assuming Swedish entry into World War I on the side of the Central Powers in 1914...
If Gallipoli were rejected (for whatever reason), would it be possible to see some of the forces involved in that campaign in OTL being sent to open up a second front against Sweden via Norway? How might such a campaign have gone?

At best, probably a northern version of Salonika. The border between Sweden and Norway is mountainous and eminently defensible, so they may not even reach Swedish territory, never mind penetrate it. This is even on the assumption that Norway doesn't resist.

Given Norway's peculiar shape, it is conceivable that the CP may break through to the Atlantic at some point, in which case the U-boats have a useful base. Having both Norway and Sweden in the war means the blockade will be somewhat tighter, but so, of course, will the CP blockade of Russia. OTL a significant amount of supplies went there via Norway and Sweden. That is now cut off.

All in all, probably a wash, unless the reduction in supplies causes the Russian Revolution to come sooner.

 

[yourworstnightmare]

If Sweden join the CP, I think Britain would be even more eager to keep Norway neutral, to avoid the risk of a Swedish- German occupation of Norway.

 

[Timmy811]

Sweden in the war means the blockade will be somewhat tighter, but so, of course, will the CP blockade of Russia. OTL a significant amount of supplies went there via Norway and Sweden. That is now cut off.

All in all, probably a wash, unless the reduction in supplies causes the Russian Revolution to come sooner.

This is something I hadn't considered and would I think have serious ramifications.

 

[Fabilius]

Sigh, ok then.

Even more basic:
Norway does as GB says and have a chance. Defy GB and Norway loose it all. This was Norwegian foreign policy OTL from 1905 to 1948!!!

Just look at OTL ww1. There is a reason for Norway beeing called "The Neutral Allied." For all the purposes GB needed it, Norway participated. Do you think Norway did this because we benefited to? The only reason Norway stayed "neutral" was that GB realy did not need that last straw. Had GB wanted it, she would have got it.

Thanks, makes sense now that you say it.

It´s really interesting, sadly I know so little about Norway (after the middle ages, I´ve read all of Snorri´s stuff). I should read something about it´s 20th century history when I get the chance I figure.

Some people are always looking for ways to make Scandinavia more dystopic and I think there you have it, Sweden getting attacked by Russia, Norway forced into attacking Sweden... and a British invasion into Germany via Jutland.

Then followed by the OTL civil war in Finland happening as it did, but maybe seeds for a socialist revolution somewhere in Scandinavia.

 

[stjernkjempe]

Some people are always looking for ways to make Scandinavia more dystopic and I think there you have it, Sweden getting attacked by Russia, Norway forced into attacking Sweden... and a British invasion into Germany via Jutland.

Then followed by the OTL civil war in Finland happening as it did, but maybe seeds for a socialist revolution somewhere in Scandinavia.

There is trouble brewing in Sweden 1914-19. At several occasions bread riots break out into general violence and the inflation due to the ration system makes food and fuel super expensive. Socialists ended up demanding Sweden negotiate whit UK to get food shipments in the 1917-18 and several socialist rallies by the SAP (Swedish SDP) were confronted by police and military. At one occasion the people disarmed the military, as cooler heads prevailed the military didn't try to defend their weapons and got them back almost immediately.