WW1 never happended a 21th century world

Hi this is a world were WW1 nevered happened, the Bell Epoque in Europe never ended, Guild Age in America is still going on, and in Mexico Porifiato is still going on.


The original One % still rule, the great Royal House of the 1900's.


But this world does have have a Dark Flip side, this is a White Man's world Women don't have rights or Vote, Racism is the norm, and Africa is cut up like a Cake under European rule so is most of the world. The Class system is the norm through Europe.

The problem is what type of culture would there be and Music as well,

LW
 
Hi this is a world were WW1 nevered happened, the Bell Epoque in Europe never ended, Guild Age in America is still going on, and in Mexico Porifiato is still going on.


The original One % still rule, the great Royal House of the 1900's.


But this world does have have a Dark Flip side, this is a White Man's world Women don't have rights or Vote, Racism is the norm, and Africa is cut up like a Cake under European rule so is most of the world. The Class system is the norm through Europe.

The problem is what type of culture would there be and Music as well,

LW

This world is literally impossible given human nature, since the European nations had such strong socialist movements that either two things would happen--revolution or the nations implement democracy and take away the power and money of the 1%.

Take Britain, for example--World War I prevented Britain from having to deal with some very tough issues, like the state of the poor (horrible), Ireland (bound to result in nothing good no matter what decision Britain chose), women's suffrage, etc. World War I helped kick the can down the road for a few more years. Without it, socialism's success is more and more likely if the governments of the world don't make some reforms. And once one nation has a revolution, you'll have 1848 all over again, and this time, they will win some major concessions, or otherwise have a full on communist revolution (not necessarily Soviet style, as though Russia is probably closest to revolution in this era, the Soviets will be balanced by other socialist states).
 
Yeah, I can't see this happening. WWI sped up the resolution of these issues, but it didn't decisively resolve them. These issues wouldn't go away. I also think its frankly impossible to avoid WWI based on the web of tension in Europe. If WWI didn't start in Sarejevo here are some of the ways it could have started:
1. French revanchanism over A-L
2. Russian attempts to destabilize A-H
3. Conflicts of interest in the Balkans
4. Conflicts over colonialism
5. Ottoman expansionism under the CUP
6. Italian irredentism
And much more!
How were these issues resolved without war?
 

yourworstnightmare

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The two worls wars was that taught Europe that war is really bad, and should be avoided. Without them the lessons are not learned.
 
Hi this is a world were WW1 nevered happened, the Bell Epoque in Europe never ended, Guild Age in America is still going on, and in Mexico Porifiato is still going on.


The original One % still rule, the great Royal House of the 1900's.


But this world does have have a Dark Flip side, this is a White Man's world Women don't have rights or Vote, Racism is the norm, and Africa is cut up like a Cake under European rule so is most of the world. The Class system is the norm through Europe.

The problem is what type of culture would there be and Music as well,

LW

Is the PoD that no major war occurred or that all the bad stuff you say came to pass. Because I don't think you'd see as bad a scenario in 2000 as you point out.

Women's rights - this is coming war or no war. It might not be as advanced as today (no abortion on demand, uneven rights for inheritance and tax, little or no single mother child support) but women getting the vote is not stoppable in the context of what was already happening in 1914.
Racism - unfortunately I can see this persisting. Too many people benefit from this to see it suppressed.
Colonialism - I can see it persisting but the dominion model will become the norm. An Indian revolt could be the exception (and the initiator of decolonisation) but the revolt would be bloody and probably inconclusive (in the sense that if it fails it would happen again)
Class system persists - since it persists in vestigal form today it will be much stronger - but the technocrat class will slower dilute the 1% until it becomes 5% or 10%. can see a permanent "underclass" being established though. Not convinced communism will catch on simply because without a major war to distract the monarchies it is in their collective interest to suppress communism wherever it takes place.
 
For those who say it's inevitable, please explain why none of the events of the previous quarter-century had tipped off even a public disagreement between the nations. IMO without the assassination, the status quo will continue until such time as one power or another falls to internal pressure. The big issues are instability in A-H and Russia.

Technology will be better most likely, with aviation driven not by warfare, but by airline competition (Sikorsy's Ilya Muromets airliners were due to start semi-regular service in 1914), while the 'green revolution' will get a much earlier boost thanks to Frank Shuman, who's 1913 pilot solar plant in Egypt proved to be at least mildly successful, and may well have spawned further plants in places equally bereft of other major power sources.
page643-554px-The_Electrical_Experimenter%2C_Volume_3.pdf.jpg

Add into that the fact that you end up with a multi-polar 'Cold War' type situation (not the USA vs USSR, but USA, UK, France Germany, Japan, possibly Russian, maybe China, etc), all throwing money into projects to one-up each other.

You also miss out the war (obviously), the 1918 Flu Pandemic, WW2, probably the rise of communism and a lot of other little tragedies. This amounts to well over 150 million lives saved over OTL, which should surely be counted as a positive.
 
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This world is literally impossible given human nature, since the European nations had such strong socialist movements that either two things would happen--revolution or the nations implement democracy and take away the power and money of the 1%.

Take Britain, for example--World War I prevented Britain from having to deal with some very tough issues, like the state of the poor (horrible), Ireland (bound to result in nothing good no matter what decision Britain chose), women's suffrage, etc. World War I helped kick the can down the road for a few more years. Without it, socialism's success is more and more likely if the governments of the world don't make some reforms. And once one nation has a revolution, you'll have 1848 all over again, and this time, they will win some major concessions, or otherwise have a full on communist revolution (not necessarily Soviet style, as though Russia is probably closest to revolution in this era, the Soviets will be balanced by other socialist states).
Interesting. Now you've got me wondering what this would look like. Any of the great powers being destabilized by socialist revolts would present an opening in the balance of power that their rivals might eagerly take advantage of(perhaps an alternate trigger for WW1?). Europes ruling elites are also likely to see a successful socialist revolt anywhere as potentially triggering instability in their own nation.

On the side of the socialists/working class... if their nation is actively intervening to suppress a socialist revolt in another country, that might be enough to trigger them to revolt. And once you've got socialist movements in multiple countries revolting in solidarity, that might just be the spark that ignites a Europe wide conflagration.

It wouldn't just be socialists either. If Russia is the first domino to fall then there's a decent chance the Poles make a break for independence, not really being a hotbed of support for either socialism or the Russian empire. This puts the Germans and French in a very awkward position- in theory the Germans should back the Poles to weaken Russia, and France the reverse. But Germany and A-H have concerns about their own restive Polish populations, whilst France has a historically been sympathetic to the Polish plight. A-H has a similar combination of both socialist and nationalistic tensions, so whichever shoots first the other will most probably take advantage.

Is there any real chance of the socialists overcoming organized resistance from the state and elite though, without there having been weakened by WW1 first? The Russian government squashed the 1905 revolution after all. The socialists might have better shot in a country with a much weaker army(Britain for example), or where the army is less dominated by aristocrats and might see some significant mutinies(France?).
 
What I'm wanted is a world were the old 1% are still in control, a world were Labor and Class were at the 1900's culture


The Edwardian Social type culture and class levels, In the British Empire. In America the Progressive era is very slow to happen or happens in slights outbreaks,

The old Royal Houses in Europe have kept a lid on lower classes, wide spread education in the the Upper Classes to take the lead,

Unlike Now there is now equality among the races,


LW
 
Hi this is a world were WW1 nevered happened, the Bell Epoque in Europe never ended, Guild Age in America is still going on, and in Mexico Porifiato is still going on.


The original One % still rule, the great Royal House of the 1900's.


But this world does have have a Dark Flip side, this is a White Man's world Women don't have rights or Vote, Racism is the norm, and Africa is cut up like a Cake under European rule so is most of the world. The Class system is the norm through Europe.

The problem is what type of culture would there be and Music as well,

LW

Seems unlikely given that Finland granted women the vote pre war as did New Zealand and it was already a live issue in the UK, which had already moved towards the franchise for local government elections several US states were also moving in that direction.
As for rights the World War was considerably after for example the married women's property act, The lack of a war would have slowed the OTL trends down, but reversed them entirely why?
As for racism hmm maybe, but again it seems unlikely that a multi national empire in the modern era would not see some improvement if it was going to survive.
For example the lack of a world war would not have solved the Irish Question, which was very much a live issue in 1914. It seems pretty unlikely that a continuing Liberal Government,undivided because Lloyd George did not evict Asquith, would commit to solving Ireland's problems with blood thirsty repression.
Certainly no war would probably mean no Easter Rising, but it would also mean a settlement had to be found
Similarly Britain had already begun the progress towards self-government in India before WW1. without the war this would have been slowed, but I see no particular reason why India would not have eventually reached Dominion status. In theory an Irish settlement and an un-partitioned India has potential for rather less racism than now.
Similarly why would Austria Hungary and the Ottaman empire continuing to exist create more racism, rather than what happened OTL? Without WW1 there may have been no Armenian Genocide, no stupid Wilsonian 14 points, no coming to power of the house of Saud and certainly no Hitler, probably no Stalin or Mao.
Only in the USA is racism likely to have been worse than OTL, or to have endured longer, oh and possibly South Africa.
As for class hmm maybe but some Empires are less class ridden than others. In many ways the British Empire and to an extent the French had been very much the triumph of the middle classes not the aristocracy. Only really the Russian Empire was ever completely dominated by an Aristocracy.
It is hard to see how successful Empires could be totally class-ridden in an age of industrial and commercial power, rather than one based on land.
So to get to where the OP says this world is it needs something else that throws social progress backwards. The absence of war would only have slowed it.
 
What I'm wanted is a world were the old 1% are still in control, a world were Labor and Class were at the 1900's culture


The Edwardian Social type culture and class levels, In the British Empire. In America the Progressive era is very slow to happen or happens in slights outbreaks,

The old Royal Houses in Europe have kept a lid on lower classes, wide spread education in the the Upper Classes to take the lead,

Unlike Now there is now equality among the races,


LW
Needless to say they are going to face resistance from the suppressed elements, but the aristocracy could very easily win. After all the socialists were crushed whenever they tried to take power through violence, with Russia being the only real exception.

These liberal reforms you want stopped were allowed precisely in attempt to head off the possibility of insurrection. You could make an argument that liberalism was one side of the coin and fascism the other- to the extent that a liberalized system was insufficient to contain socialist pressure(or out of simple unwillingness to make the necessary concessions) "they" resorted to brute force instead. Of course fascism as we know it is a product of WW1 as well... a German fascism without WW1 might look a lot more like the Italian/Spanish fascisms then OTL's Nazism.

You still have that tension within the elite though, between the more liberal elements that didn't want to get into a bare knuckle brawl with the working class and the reactionary elements who were willing to do so. If you want the latter to win out, might be best if the socialists "shoot first", see my previous post on the possibility of a pan-European socialist rebellion. The establishment would most likely crush such a rebellion- but there'll still being simmering tensions, strikes, assassinations etc... you already had these of course, but if it's dialled up to 11 in the aftermath of a true pan-European revolt, then you might see a real hardcore reactionary shift amongst the establishment.

Plus if they don't trust the working class's patriotism then they're much less likely to kick the shit out of each other in some WW1 analogue.
 
What I'm wanted is a world were the old 1% are still in control, a world were Labor and Class were at the 1900's culture

In addition to Sarahz's excellent points above the issue here would seem to be more one of technology than wars. True wars can have significant effects on social structures but I would contend the impact of technological changes would be even more profound with or without war.

The nature of manufacturing industry changed hugely across the 20th Century and is possibly changing again with the increased use of automation and additive manufacture.

Then there has been the rise and rise of service industries. This profoundly affects the nature of employment and thus the class system.

In addition trade has been altered steadily by the ever increasing efficiency of transportation and information systems meaning not merely do you know better what goods are most sought after where but you can send them there faster and cheaper.

Even the nature of primary industries such as logging, mining and arable agriculture are experiencing dramatic shifts in patterns of exploitation and labour usage in the period 1914-2014 .

It all adds up.
 
Interesting. Now you've got me wondering what this would look like. Any of the great powers being destabilized by socialist revolts would present an opening in the balance of power that their rivals might eagerly take advantage of(perhaps an alternate trigger for WW1?). Europes ruling elites are also likely to see a successful socialist revolt anywhere as potentially triggering instability in their own nation.

On the side of the socialists/working class... if their nation is actively intervening to suppress a socialist revolt in another country, that might be enough to trigger them to revolt. And once you've got socialist movements in multiple countries revolting in solidarity, that might just be the spark that ignites a Europe wide conflagration.

It wouldn't just be socialists either. If Russia is the first domino to fall then there's a decent chance the Poles make a break for independence, not really being a hotbed of support for either socialism or the Russian empire. This puts the Germans and French in a very awkward position- in theory the Germans should back the Poles to weaken Russia, and France the reverse. But Germany and A-H have concerns about their own restive Polish populations, whilst France has a historically been sympathetic to the Polish plight. A-H has a similar combination of both socialist and nationalistic tensions, so whichever shoots first the other will most probably take advantage.

Is there any real chance of the socialists overcoming organized resistance from the state and elite though, without there having been weakened by WW1 first? The Russian government squashed the 1905 revolution after all. The socialists might have better shot in a country with a much weaker army(Britain for example), or where the army is less dominated by aristocrats and might see some significant mutinies(France?).

I haven't done anything beyond cursory research here, I'll admit. I do know, however, that if Germany had kept on restricting the SPD as they did OTL, that very bad things would have happened to the German social order. The SPD was increasing in strength every German election despite huge barriers against it. If the Kaiser wants to keep said barriers up and not give into the SPD's demands, he will end up militarising many SPD members and create a communist state.

Russia could end up either way--the Red Army had a huge boost from the chaos of the Great War. It will definitely be one of the first to go, since Russian society was pretty much waiting for something to happen considering how messed up it was and incompetent the Tsar was. But in no way would a 1910s-era revolt be as easy to suppress as the 1905 revolt. Change was coming to Russia--they could flow with it or be swept away. That's basically what will happen with every European state plus the US. If you keep blocking the basic demands, you will find very undesirable amounts of militancy and revolution.

I'm most familiar with Germany and Eastern Europe in this situation. The most obvious intervener is France, but France would need British backing. Britain itself is going to have severe internal issues in regards to Ireland as well as Labour militancy in the North of England plus Scotland. That will limit Britain's influence on this. As for Polish nationalism, there was a big left-wing component of it. I don't think they'd unite with the Soviet Union, but they'd be sympathetic to both the Soviet and German demands here. It all helps make a more effective Comintern in the end (assuming the Second International fades--otherwise the Second International is revived). The most interesting thing here is how French or British communism might evolve. It's been noted many times that the evolution of the Soviet Union owed much to Tsarism in its antidemocratic state--how might countries with a semblance of democracy, however flawed, like France, Britian or the US for that matter, have taken a revolution?

Austria-Hungary is probably doomed. Nationalism will quite possibly destroy them. Their biggest successor will be Hungary itself, which will include most of Croatia and Romania as well as Slovakia. How Hungary manages this I'm not sure. Austria itself will join Germany in the end. On the off-chance they can survive, they'll reform along the lines of the Soviet Union as a very multiethnic empire. Austromarxism will be their founding principle. Same goes with the Ottoman Empire--it will reform itself along Austromarxist lines assuming it too falls. If I recall, the Armenians were the main leftist advocates during the Ottoman era, but I see no reason leftism couldn't spread to other nations in the Ottoman state, the Arabs had no problem doing so and the Turkish leftists were enough of an issue to supress during the Cold War, so I'm assuming the potential of a leftist Turkish state is doable (with or without the Ottoman Sultan/Caliph).

For the United States, they best go along with Progressive-era reforms or they too will meet the same fate. All it will take for any Western power to fall to communism in this scenario is either severe economic downturn or war, both of which are pretty much inevitable. It all depends how the dominos fall.

What I'm wanted is a world were the old 1% are still in control, a world were Labor and Class were at the 1900's culture


The Edwardian Social type culture and class levels, In the British Empire. In America the Progressive era is very slow to happen or happens in slights outbreaks,

The old Royal Houses in Europe have kept a lid on lower classes, wide spread education in the the Upper Classes to take the lead,

Unlike Now there is now equality among the races,


LW

But that's the thing, you can't have it because that's about as impossible as saying "what if in the 21st century we have Roman-era technology". I guess it's doable, but with a POD far beyond what you're asking for. Society in that era was moving away from that model, from both the top and the bottom. If you set a POD far enough away to prevent this sort of consciousness, you make sure the Gilded Age won't exist. Keeping a lid on the lower classes is only doable through the same reforms that abolished the era in the first place--otherwise, only revolution is the result.
 
For example the lack of a world war would not have solved the Irish Question, which was very much a live issue in 1914. It seems pretty unlikely that a continuing Liberal Government,undivided because Lloyd George did not evict Asquith, would commit to solving Ireland's problems with blood thirsty repression.
Certainly no war would probably mean no Easter Rising, but it would also mean a settlement had to be found
Oh hey, the Irish Home Rule Bill was finally passed in 1914, and they were down to debating how it would deal with Northern Ireland.

The Middle East will likely also end up better without the war and partition, oh perhaps more bloody at first, but with much less outside interference on where the borers run, and what the governments are like.
 
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