WW1: England Allies With Germany

if britain recognises the us for the threat it is i could imagine that playing a role.

i know that britain was afraid of the growing size of the german navy, but what if they go by this: "the best way to neutralise a powerful enemy is by making them a friend"
 
if britain recognises the us for the threat it is i could imagine that playing a role.

i know that britain was afraid of the growing size of the german navy, but what if they go by this: "the best way to neutralise a powerful enemy is by making them a friend"

The US isn't a threat though. German hegemony over Europe on the other hand, very much is.

As for neutralizing a powerful enemy by making them a friend . . .

and how do we deal with the fact that the set up of the world Germany wants is counter to the set up Britain wants to have continue?
 
You would have to have a POD that goes quite far back that results in there being a bigger threat than Germany to European Balance of Power. Like a more powerful France or Russia. The British foreign policy for the last three hundred years has been to promote a situation in Europe so no one power (not even them, I think) dominates the continent. I forgot why exactly this was, but I think it was something to do with trade.

Unfortunately, a stronger France would probably mean a weaker Germany, or no Germany at all, while a stronger Russia would probably also mean this.

How about an alternate, more powerful Russia with an actually effective army (not the sack of crap it was IOTL First World War) that begins to exert massive influence in Asia on Iran, China etc. Clash of interests over influence and trade between Britain and Russia lead to an alliance between Germany and Britain - with Germany's defensiveness about encroaching Russian influence in Eastern and South-Eastern Europe going nicely with British concerns over Russia dominating Europe (though this is also difficult, as it was never in Russia's interests to try and dominate the whole of Europe). Meanwhile France, concerned about Germany, allies with Russia. Conflicting interests in the Balkans spark off *WWI and things get rolling.
 
But how do you get such an army?

That's going to take a -lot- of work, not all of the kinds of work which the rulers at the time even recognize - and if they did recognize, would necessarily be willing to pay.

Massive social reforms and Alexander III ain't happening. Heck, *Nicholas II (his brother, in other words) might not be enough.
 
But how do you get such an army?

That's going to take a -lot- of work, not all of the kinds of work which the rulers at the time even recognize - and if they did recognize, would necessarily be willing to pay.

Massive social reforms and Alexander III ain't happening. Heck, *Nicholas II (his brother, in other words) might not be enough.

It'd have the be an alternate Russian Emperor and one heck of an assumption made by us AHers. So many things need to happen it's pretty difficult to see Russia getting powerful enough to warrant Britain allying with Germany. Russia didn't get a good army until, what, the Second World War?

One thing I've seen thrown around is a militarised, anglophobic France that formed out of a colonial war with Britain (some kind of "Fashoda War"?) just before the turn of the century that makes the UK ally with Germany. How feasible is this?
 
It'd have the be an alternate Russian Emperor and one heck of an assumption made by us AHers. So many things need to happen it's pretty difficult to see Russia getting powerful enough to warrant Britain allying with Germany. Russia didn't get a good army until, what, the Second World War?

One thing I've seen thrown around is a militarised, anglophobic France that formed out of a colonial war with Britain (some kind of "Fashoda War"?) just before the turn of the century that makes the UK ally with Germany. How feasible is this?

It was pretty effective at the end of the Napoleonic Wars, it's the century after that it sucked in.

Anyhow: Why would Britain feel the need to ally with Germany to deal with such a France? At least outside the immediate context of war - as in, if this France declares war on _____, declare war on France and ally with ____.
 
All this talk of "German Hegemony" seems very much based on hindsight. Britain's rivals in geo-political terms were France in Africa and Russia in Asia. Britain's fear of Russian interference in Afghanistan, Persia and Tibet cannot be overstated. As much as they are flights of fancy, these percieved Russian avenues to move on India persisted as a real factor in British decision making for almost 100 years.
 

yourworstnightmare

Banned
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Britain will always ally with the weaker Continental Power for one reason: avoid a dominant power in Continental Europe. That's why an alliance with Germany is almost impossible. Britain was able to ally with their much hated rival France just to make sure the Germans wouldn't become a European Hegemon.

From Germany's perspective: you need another government than the OTL government. The German quest for colonies and the feeling Willy II and his government had that France and Britain had "stolen" colonies that should rightfully be German will make Germany an adversary to Britain. You need to get rid of Willy II for this to change.
 
if Germany ceded all African Colonial claims to Great Britain during the Berlin Conference. For one, this would have alleviated future upkeep for territories that did not yield their expense, as well as putting the two nations on better terms from the beginning. I'm fairly certain that if Germany was just a tad bit more cautious, they could pull off an alliance.

I very much doubt Germany would cede all of it, rather they'd probably cede South-West Africa, East Africa, German New Guinea, the Caroline Islands, Nauru and Palau, while only keeping Togoland in Africa (the only economically profitable colony), their concessionary ports in China and the Northern Mariana Islands and German Samoa in the Pacific, which would allow them to retain their profitable colony, dumping the unprofitable ones and keep a few ports in the Pacific for trade reasons while being small enough for the British to not consider them worrisome.
 
Flip Austria-Hungary. Post Seven Weeks War and Franco-Prussian War, Austria and France draw together against Germany. (Not sure whether you have Italy stay allied with Germany or if you have them flip to France/AH).

France pursues alliances with A-H and Russia. Acts as a peacemaker/broker in the Balkans.

Germany is now encircled. In those circumstances an army/continentally orientated/threatened Germany seems more of a natural ally of Britain.

Plausible?
 
All this talk of "German Hegemony" seems very much based on hindsight. Britain's rivals in geo-political terms were France in Africa and Russia in Asia. Britain's fear of Russian interference in Afghanistan, Persia and Tibet cannot be overstated. As much as they are flights of fancy, these percieved Russian avenues to move on India persisted as a real factor in British decision making for almost 100 years.

And Germany as the most powerful nation on the Continent makes it something is something with any memory of history can recite British policy towards as yourworstnightmare basically addressed.

An army/continentally oriented/threatened Germany is still incredibly mighty:

Germany alone vs. France/Russia (OTL statistics for 1913):

14.8% of world manufacturing vs. 14.3%
Energy consumption from modern fuels, metric million tons of coal equivalent 187 vs. 116.8
17.6 million tons of steel production vs. 9.4 million tons.
Total industrial potential (UK in 1900 =100) 137.7 vs. 133.9

Austria-Hungary as partner #3 - which has no great reason to want to be allies with Russia more than Germany, and hardly more enthusiasm for France:

4.4% of world manufacturing (so now ahead of Germany)
+49.4 equivalent million metric tons of coal (still behind)
+2.6 million tons of steel (still well behind)
+40.7 total industrial potential (so now ahead)

The only significant advantage this unholy alliance has is manpower to mobilize (using OTL WWI figures, Germany mobilized 13.25 million men, France+Russia is 21.2 million, Austria-Hungary adds nine million)

Why does Britain want to favor the strongest power again?

Diplomacy could and did deal with the Bear and the Frog. Dealing with the Crow (if you don't get the reference, I'll post the link - it refers to the first Reich, but the same principle applies) is another problem entirely.

Not sure its worth adding Italy's statistics given how pitiful they are, but I'll post them if desired.
 
Britain had some real issues with Russia and to some extentFrance. Have France cock things up (possible) Russia really upset Britain (notably easy) and Germany be sensible (probably requires no Willy the Stupid) an there you are
 
I strongly feel the argument filling most of this thread would utterly disappear if only everyone would just take a day and go read Es Geloybte Aretz. I refuse to waste comments justifying whether this is possible.

As for what would actually happen.... Japan and Austria-Hungary come inevitably with the first pair. Italy and the Ottomans absolutely either join in as well or remain friendly neutrals up until the probable Russian attack. China likely joins in as well (there aren't enough stupid people to put them on Russia's side, not even in a country as big as that).

Overall it lines up with the historical results, only being a little more lop-sided. Belgium and Luxembourg are invaded later in the war, as opposed to an opening-move throw of the dice; maybe the Netherlands as well. It's anyone's guess who makes the first move there. The naval and colonial clashes last longer, the latter definitely continuing to war's end. A lot of people die on Central Asian frontiers to little result. America probably never comes in, but definitely supports the Anglo-Germans more. The really vulnerable countries can't be man-handled by France and Russia alone, so basically everybody bleeds horrifically until Russia succumbs to its own political system.

Russia recovers near-Soviet borders - a bit worse, Austria-Hungary and the Ottomans are still there, more or less. Otherwise you still have a culled generation; everyone's ruling classes are still discredited; all the economies are still shaky, waiting for one good push. You get a Second Sino-Japanese War in about 15 years and probably another Russo-German struggle 5 or 10 after that. Possibly the two end up combined to a degree. America stays out again, unless the Japanese involve them. France sits out the second round, probably not alone.

Decolonization in Africa takes longer and hurts more, at least in the Italian and French areas. Algeria and Libya are affronts to human decency; possibly the Italians hold on to the latter. China has decent odds to dominate East Asia quite early.

America is self-righteously uninvolved with the dirty work of world order, balancing out their otherwise overwhelming strength. As such, it's a very different world, multi-polar earlier and on a smaller scale. International law might be a bit stronger. France and Britain are better off in most ways, if not geographically. So is much of Central Europe and the Middle East. China too, if it won. Latin America and Africa, not so much.
 
As regards why Britain may side with Germany: the war started with the heir to Austria's throne being assassinated :: no wonder Austria wanted the assassins to be handed over. When most nations had a a king or similar, people who assassinate royalty are dangerous. What would happen if Britain's Prince of Wales and his wife went to Belfast and there were assassinated by an IRA gang that came in from Eire? But that is "the same play with different actors" to what happened OTL in Sarajevo.
 
I can't see a German-UK alliance, as i can't see a non-existent French-UK alliance. Why ? Because French ruling classes know that they need the UK on their side for the showdown against germany (that will happen because Germany occupy A-L), so at the first confrontation with the UK they will back down like they did OTL after Fashoda. Frankly, no sane French governement would clash with the UK in this period for a few acres of desert in the middle of nowhere. And as for the German-Uk alliance, why should the UK allies itself with Germany ? What does it gain ? Nothing apart giving even more power the big bully of the continent, something they never liked in their history resulting in a ton of wars against France. Better ally against it to enusre the continent is divided. Oh, and i don't see Germany playing soft to get an alliance with the UK, it just wasn't their style. They were the main power on the continent for god's sake !
 
As regards why Britain may side with Germany: the war started with the heir to Austria's throne being assassinated :: no wonder Austria wanted the assassins to be handed over. When most nations had a a king or similar, people who assassinate royalty are dangerous. What would happen if Britain's Prince of Wales and his wife went to Belfast and there were assassinated by an IRA gang that came in from Eire? But that is "the same play with different actors" to what happened OTL in Sarajevo.

Um, why does that make Britain want to side with Germany again?

It's not as if the Black Hand had any connections to the IRA - or even that anyone argued that there was an international league of regicidists.
 
Um, why does that make Britain want to side with Germany again?

It's not as if the Black Hand had any connections to the IRA - or even that anyone argued that there was an international league of regicidists.

An international league of regicidists would be incredibly cool. Going up against some sort of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen like some sort of Edwardian James Bond film.
 
An international league of regicidists would be incredibly cool. Going up against some sort of League of Extraordinary Gentlemen like some sort of Edwardian James Bond film.

I'd pay to see that - as fiction, at least.

There need to be more Victorian/Edwardian era movies.

Oh, and I am definitely borrowing that as a campaign idea for the next Savage Worlds game I play.
 
I'd pay to see that - as fiction, at least.

There need to be more Victorian/Edwardian era movies.

Oh, and I am definitely borrowing that as a campaign idea for the next Savage Worlds game I play.

Call the regicidists the Brotherhood/Fellowship of the Broken Crown/Bloody Throne. :D
 
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