Ww1 blockade of Germany

I agree about the Hundred Days. Since the Germans were standing deep in Entente territory, an offensive (or in this case counteroffensive) was plainly necessary in order to expel them.

In the Russian case, though, it was not the German advance of Feb 1918 which defeated the Russian army. That had ceased to exist already, because the troops had had a bellyful and "voted with their feet" against continuing the war.

I feel you confuse military and political issues. Defeating the army is not the objective, it's a prerequisite to the objective, which is to end the war; to return to normality and to exploit the gains won. History clearly shows that the advance was required to end the war in the east in a sensible timeframe.
 
I feel you confuse military and political issues. Defeating the army is not the objective, it's a prerequisite to the objective, which is to end the war; to return to normality and to exploit the gains won. History clearly shows that the advance was required to end the war in the east in a sensible timeframe.

But the political consideration are irrelevant w/o a military victory to make them enforceable. And the military victory was not the result of an offensive but of the collapse of Russia morale. The Germans couldn't have made a similar advance a year earlier, because the Russian Army wouldn't have let them. In Feb 1918 it did let them, because its morale had collapsed and the men were sloping off home. The Feb 1918 "offensive" was the result of Russia's military collapse, not the cause of it.

Had Anglo-French soldiers similarly ceased to believe in victory, something similar could have occurred in the west. But that would be a totally different thing from Ludendorff's OTL offensive against undefeated Entente armies
 
OTL it was far easier and more effective to home brew the nitrates

Domestic nitrates production never met the economic needs of the German and Austro-Hungarian empires. The only way to make up the shortfall was in the Americas.

Why would the British have any vessels on station at American ports?

There were three legs to the blockade tripod. The first was the one we're all familiar with, the warships and squadrons of the British and French fleets patrolling the waters off British shores. The second was the global intelligence gathering efforts of the Entente governments, which sought to keep tabs on the activities in the ports around the Atlantic, and tabs on neutral and CP shipping. The third leg was the overseas AMC squadrons, that patrolled outside territorial waters of neutral ports. Their job was to interdict any CP ships entering or leaving the neutral port.

Any German merchantman making a run for Germany can only go in one direction very slowly - directly towards the Grand Fleet and the heart of British Naval power. The only hope any German ships have to survive such a journey is to avoid detection, something that is extraordinarily unlikely if you tether a Garman warship squadron to a slow moving flotilla of merchant ships.

The convoy principle is that an entire fleet is not much more likely to be spotted than a single ship, meaning that the escorted convoy's chances of breaking through undetected are only a little less than a single merchant ship's chances.

In terms of British naval power, the GIUK gap and the English Channel are, in Grand Fleet naval terms, two very different locations. The Grand Fleet cannot be in both at once and the High Seas Fleet is strong enough that a Channel raid could be very damaging. If it is in the GIUK gap searching for blockade runners, then what shall prevent the High Seas Fleet from entering the English Channel? Nothing, save for uncertainty in the location of the Grand Fleet. If the Grand Fleet is in the North Sea preventing the High Seas Fleet from making a nuisance of itself in the Channel, then what prevents a blockade running convoy from getting through? Nothing. By challenging the blockade to the north of Scotland, the HSF would have improved its local prospects as well. Is a convoy going to run the GIUK gap in the next two weeks? Then the HSF should be active in the North Sea.

In 1914 around 60% of British calories were imported and during WW1 the vast majority of those imports were from North America. If the US does not extend unsecured credit to the Entente, any alternative sources of food would require 200-300% more shipping resources, which as previous mentioned, the Entente did not have. It was not just the Entente war effort that was dependent on US imports.

The British credit was strained trying to cover the wild purchasing sprees of the French and Russians too. So it wasn't an all-or-nothing prospect for Britain in the USA. It was more the need to economize if necessary, and the first means to economize was to reign in the spending habits of the other Entente members.
 

Riain

Banned
In terms of British naval power, the GIUK gap and the English Channel are, in Grand Fleet naval terms, two very different locations. The Grand Fleet cannot be in both at once and the High Seas Fleet is strong enough that a Channel raid could be very damaging. If it is in the GIUK gap searching for blockade runners, then what shall prevent the High Seas Fleet from entering the English Channel? Nothing, save for uncertainty in the location of the Grand Fleet. If the Grand Fleet is in the North Sea preventing the High Seas Fleet from making a nuisance of itself in the Channel, then what prevents a blockade running convoy from getting through? Nothing. By challenging the blockade to the north of Scotland, the HSF would have improved its local prospects as well. Is a convoy going to run the GIUK gap in the next two weeks? Then the HSF should be active in the North Sea.

I sort of agree, the Germans used fleet movement to cover the transfer of destroyers to Flanders and other things. The problem is that the Northern Patrol, 10 armoured cruisers in August 1914, wasn't really part of the GF battle fleet and kept up it's patrol duties regardless of GF sorties into the Heliogoland Bight or whatever. So a convoy would have to run the gauntlet of multiple patrol lines , hounded by AMCs and warships that could warn the GF to get into an interception position once whatever task it was doing was completed.

In addition the GF was comfortably larger and more powerful than the HSF, so every time the HSF sortied it was at risk of getting destroyed in battle. I doubt there are many trade convoys valuable enough to lose a bunch of captial ships for.
 
I sort of agree, the Germans used fleet movement to cover the transfer of destroyers to Flanders and other things. The problem is that the Northern Patrol, 10 armoured cruisers in August 1914, wasn't really part of the GF battle fleet and kept up it's patrol duties regardless of GF sorties into the Heliogoland Bight or whatever. So a convoy would have to run the gauntlet of multiple patrol lines , hounded by AMCs and warships that could warn the GF to get into an interception position once whatever task it was doing was completed.

No doubt some convoys would be intercepted and destroyed, others would get through, and plenty of patrolling AMC`s and AC`s would meet their end along the way as well, (not like Hipper can`t come out to the GIUK gap to say `hi`). But, for the Grand Fleet, if they`re trying to pursue a convoy running the Denmark Straight eastward, then they`re getting into a long chase into the Greenland Sea, (the convoy doesn`t have to head straight for Norway if tailed through the Denmark Straight, it can turn north and run for the Artic and hide out there for a while). If the Grand Fleet enters the Greenland Sea looking for a convoy, the Western Approaches get pretty exposed. And between the Greenland Sea and Western Approaches, the Germans will have the weather advantage. The potential was there, but the German fleet lacked the energy to fight for real and the German army in 1914 had no idea how potentially valuable Pas de Calais was to fleet operations.

In addition the GF was comfortably larger and more powerful than the HSF, so every time the HSF sortied it was at risk of getting destroyed in battle. I doubt there are many trade convoys valuable enough to lose a bunch of captial ships for.

Being a landpower, the HSF was worth losing if in being sunk Germany imported it`s weight in sunken warships in vital commodities such as nitrates, metals, rubber. As Mike suggests, if the blockade doesn`t defeat Germany and the US remains neutral, Germany could very well win the war. Being a landpower meant that sacrificing the surface fleet was a good move if Germany`s landpower was enhanced along the way. Germany did not require a single surface warship to survive the war in order to win it. It only required its army to defeat its enemies on the continent.

That being said, the British weren`t exactly made out of battleships either, and if the Grand Fleet destroyed a convoy and three or four escorting warships, but in exchange their Channel Fleet of eighteen or twenty pre-dreadnoughts was annihilated outright, then the British have suffered a strategic catastrophe while the Germans have lost a replaceable convoy and a few replaceable escorts. So, it`s not like the risk factor was all one way. Any time the GF goes north, the British were taking a big risk too.
 
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No doubt some convoys would be intercepted and destroyed, others would get through, and plenty of patrolling AMC`s and AC`s would meet their end along the way as well, (not like Hipper can`t come out to the GIUK gap to say `hi`). But, for the Grand Fleet, if they`re trying to pursue a convoy running the Denmark Straight eastward, then they`re getting into a long chase into the Greenland Sea, (the convoy doesn`t have to head straight for Norway if tailed through the Denmark Straight, it can turn north and run for the Artic and hide out there for a while). If the Grand Fleet enters the Greenland Sea looking for a convoy, the Western Approaches get pretty exposed. And between the Greenland Sea and Western Approaches, the Germans will have the weather advantage. The potential was there, but the German fleet lacked the energy to fight for real and the German army in 1914 had no idea how potentially valuable Pas de Calais was to fleet operations.



Being a landpower, the HSF was worth losing if in being sunk Germany imported it`s weight in sunken warships in vital commodities such as nitrates, metals, rubber. As Mike suggests, if the blockade doesn`t defeat Germany and the US remains neutral, Germany could very well win the war. Being a landpower meant that sacrificing the surface fleet was a good move if Germany`s landpower was enhanced along the way. Germany did not require a single surface warship to survive the war in order to win it. It only required its army to defeat its enemies on the continent.

That being said, the British weren`t exactly made out of battleships either, and if the Grand Fleet destroyed a convoy and three or four escorting warships, but in exchange their Channel Fleet of eighteen or twenty pre-dreadnoughts was annihilated outright, then the British have suffered a strategic catastrophe while the Germans have lost a replaceable convoy and a few replaceable escorts. So, it`s not like the risk factor was all one way. Any time the GF goes north, the British were taking a big risk too.
Interesting plan. But, how does the HSF or even just the Scouting Force, get to the GIUK gap without running into the Grand Fleet? Or for that matter, without running out of fuel.
 

Riain

Banned
That being said, the British weren`t exactly made out of battleships either, and if the Grand Fleet destroyed a convoy and three or four escorting warships, but in exchange their Channel Fleet of eighteen or twenty pre-dreadnoughts was annihilated outright, then the British have suffered a strategic catastrophe while the Germans have lost a replaceable convoy and a few replaceable escorts. So, it`s not like the risk factor was all one way. Any time the GF goes north, the British were taking a big risk too.

The Channel Fleet only had 20 pre-dreads for 2 weeks in August 1914. The 5th and 8th battle squadrons were formed from the pre-dreads of the 2nd and 3rd fleets on the 8th of August and assigned to the Channel Fleet. However the 8th BS was dispersed on the 20th of August (the day before German cavalry appeared at Ostend) so single ships could reinforce cruiser patrols worldwide. Between 20 August 1914 and February 1915 the Channel Fleet only had about 10 pre-dreads for the Germans to attack.
 
Interesting plan. But, how does the HSF or even just the Scouting Force, get to the GIUK gap without running into the Grand Fleet? Or for that matter, without running out of fuel.

In 1918 Scheer executed a fleet sortie to Norway hunting for a convoy, that the Grand Fleet had no idea was underway until SMS Moltke broke radio silence. What causes you to suppose the HSF couldn't do what it actually did?

In terms of the fuel range of HSF dreadnoughts and cruisers, the GIUK arena was doable. The hurdle was the psychological factor of the Grand Fleet at Scapa, between the German warships and Germany.
 
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In 1918 Scheer executed a fleet sortie to Norway hunting for a convoy, that the Grand Fleet had no idea was underway until SMS Moltke broke radio silence. What causes you to suppose the HSF couldn't do what it actually did?

In terms of the fuel range of HSF dreadnoughts and cruisers, the GIUK arena was doable. The hurdle was the psychological factor of the Grand Fleet at Scapa, between the German warships and Germany.

How far north was this sortie?
 
The HSF got into the convoy route, (Bergen-Methil) off the Norwegian coast without detection by the Grand Fleet. So, they got to about Bergen, Norway and then Moltke broke radio silence and the GF sortied.
 
The HSF got into the convoy route, (Bergen-Methil) off the Norwegian coast without detection by the Grand Fleet. So, they got to about Bergen, Norway and then Moltke broke radio silence and the GF sortied.


In that case, that seems not quite as far as the GIUK gap, unless you go very close to Scotland.
 

Riain

Banned
In 1914 the northern patrol line was between Scotland and Norway, making an attempt to break it to bring covoys in and out feasible more or less. But in 1915 the northern patrol lines were moved further north and west out into the Atlantic and thus well beyond the reach of the HSF given the GF could not even bother to stop the attack on the patrol line and covoy escorts, but instead cut off its route back to Germany and destroy it in battle as it came home low on fuel.
 
In 1918 Scheer executed a fleet sortie to Norway hunting for a convoy, that the Grand Fleet had no idea was underway until SMS Moltke broke radio silence. What causes you to suppose the HSF couldn't do what it actually did?

In terms of the fuel range of HSF dreadnoughts and cruisers, the GIUK arena was doable. The hurdle was the psychological factor of the Grand Fleet at Scapa, between the German warships and Germany.
1) What Scheer said - how far was this sortie to the Norwegian coast from its bases?
2) is the GIUK gap manageable both ways or a one way trip? Bear in mind that operating at battle speeds costs far more in fuel than cruising.

Perhaps rather than psychological factors deterring the HSF from such an operation it was unwillingness to let a numerically superior force be able to get between it and its home anchorage?
 

Riain

Banned
Perhaps rather than psychological factors deterring the HSF from such an operation it was unwillingness to let a numerically superior force be able to get between it and its home anchorage?

This isn't a psychological issue, it's maybe the most important tactical and operational consideration for Germany. They knew that their fleet was inferior at the start of the war and getting more so as the war progressed so any general fleet battle they could not escape from would likely result in the total destruction of the Fleet. This would leave the Germans unable to guard their coasts, keep the RN out of the Baltic or fight the Russians. No covoy is worth that.
 
It seems like supply demand would dictate if the Germans were willing to pay lets say 10 times market value for nitrates, copper, nickel etc.. that various neutral business interests would just fit out neutral flagged ships and sail them in hopes a certain percentage would get through (like 1864 trade to Confederate Wilmington). Without having to risk expensive naval warships as convoy escorts for a convoy of German flagged merchants.

Ships like Moewe and Wolf and the ships to East Africa got through undetected (and back in case of Moewe and Wolf). So its proven possible to get a percentage through.

http://www.kaiserscross.com/188001/476201.html

Perhaps enough supply trickled through neutral borders or was domestically salvaged and produced, that the supply demand wasn't ever good enough to make American civil war style blockade running profitable. (Or the Germans could not do their OTL extensive minefields then, which they needed).
 
In that case, that seems not quite as far as the GIUK gap, unless you go very close to Scotland.

The issue is whether the Grand Fleet based at Scapa Flow can or cannot reliably intercept warships exiting the North Sea from the direction of Germany, which would not approach Scotland while doing so. In 1939-1940 the RN proved unable to do so even with long range patrol aircraft and radar. In 1914-1917 the RN had neither. When Norway fell in 1940 the situation became quite difficult, but recovered in 1941 thanks to better radar, signet, and airpower.

The big question is the attitudes of Denmark, Sweden and Norway towards the Entente and Germany. Germany would benefiet from certain Scandinavian policies, Britain by others. Which side can better get their way in these neutral capitals?
 
The issue is whether the Grand Fleet based at Scapa Flow can or cannot reliably intercept warships exiting the North Sea from the direction of Germany, which would not approach Scotland while doing so. In 1939-1940 the RN proved unable to do so even with long range patrol aircraft and radar. In 1914-1917 the RN had neither. When Norway fell in 1940 the situation became quite difficult, but recovered in 1941 thanks to better radar, signet, and airpower.

The big question is the attitudes of Denmark, Sweden and Norway towards the Entente and Germany. Germany would benefiet from certain Scandinavian policies, Britain by others. Which side can better get their way in these neutral capitals?

I think there was a concern as to whether German ships had enough fuel to reach the giuk gap.
 
In 1914 the northern patrol line was between Scotland and Norway, making an attempt to break it to bring covoys in and out feasible more or less. But in 1915 the northern patrol lines were moved further north and west out into the Atlantic and thus well beyond the reach of the HSF given the GF could not even bother to stop the attack on the patrol line and covoy escorts, but instead cut off its route back to Germany and destroy it in battle as it came home low on fuel.

The best defense against U-boat attack was to sit in Scapa Flow or be outside the neutral shipping lanes so that the German command did not know where to look. If the Grand Fleet were to patrol off the coast of Norway for weeks on end awaiting the return of a warship squadron, the constant neutral traffic all around it would serve as a homing beacon for U-boats.

To cross the Pacific, Spee took his supply ships with him. Spee was lost at the Falklands in December 1914, but his supply situation was good at that moment, and his squadron was materially a minor loss, but also, sufficient to break through into Germany through the RN patrol lines. He was planning to do just that. German ships breaking out of Germany could use a similar doctrine and take their coal supply with them, (fast ships, not slow). Coaling itself, in some bay or cove, was a period of vulnerability of 12 or more hours, but theatre was big.
 

hipper

Banned
The issue is whether the Grand Fleet based at Scapa Flow can or cannot reliably intercept warships exiting the North Sea from the direction of Germany, which would not approach Scotland while doing so. In 1939-1940 the RN proved unable to do so even with long range patrol aircraft and radar. In 1914-1917 the RN had neither. When Norway fell in 1940 the situation became quite difficult, but recovered in 1941 thanks to better radar, signet, and airpower.

The big question is the attitudes of Denmark, Sweden and Norway towards the Entente and Germany. Germany would benefit from certain Scandinavian policies, Britain by others. Which side can better get their way in these neutral capitals?

The royal navy exercised sea control by tracking neutral merchant shipping, not randomly trying to intercept ships in the GUIK gap

The British adopted the navicert system in 1916. The navicert issued by the belligerent’s representative in a neutral country was tantamount to a ship’s passport, possession of which ensured, in the absence of suspicious circumstances, that the vessel would be allowed to proceed on its way. Any ship without one was liable to seizure and detention until an admiralty court determines it is lawful prize or not. Any ship loading a cargo without one would have been intercepted as it sailed out of territorial waters. Quite honestly it was not worth a neutral ship owners time trying to get to Germany or a neutral with an unauthorised cargo.
 
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