WRE surviving the fifth century- outline

Based on the thread further down, here's a rough skeleton plan to get the WRE through its very tricky fifth century...

POD: Constantius III lives for another decade.
422: After much threatening and haggling over imperial titles, with the government of the young Theodosius II refusing to acknowledge Constantius as a fellow Emperor, Constantius bribes a Gotho-Hunnic army to invade the Balkans. Theodosius backs down, and Constantius is accepted.
423: The Emperor Honorius dies on schedule.
426: Hunnic attacks on Pannonia are repulsed by John, the OTL rebel against Valentinian III. The young Attila is killed in the fighting.
428-9: Constantius campaigns in Spain against the Vandals, inflicting several serious defeats on them. The Suevic occupation of the far north-west of Iberia is accepted, and the remaining Vandals are settled on the Atlantic coast as Foederati.
430: Frankish incursions in Gaul. The capable young general Flavius Aetius is made Magister Militum with responsibility for the province.
431: Constantius III dies, leaving behind him a twelve year old son, Valentinian III, who has been hugely influenced by his father. Constantius' daughter, a fourteen year old named Honoria is married off by her mother Galla Placidia to John, in an attempt to keep a secure regency. Aetius revolts in Gaul.
432: Aetius is able to persuade the Aquitan Visigoths to join his revolt, and an army sent by John is defeated. Aetius plans to invade Italy.
433: Italy is saved by an Eastern expeditionary force, which routs Aetius' army, destroying the cream of the Visigothic aristocracy with it. The pretender himself is executed. Galla Placidia delivers John a son, Honorius.
432-38: While all this is going on, there are heavy attacks on the Rhine by Franks, which precipitates another small revolt in 436. Several Gallic towns are sacked.
438: The nineteen year old Valentinian weds Licinia Eudoxia, only surviving daughter of his cousin, the Eastern Emperor Theodosius. John is removed in a palace coup, and retires to an Egyptian monastery.
439: Aiming to emulate his father as a soldier Emperor, Valentinian campaigns in Gaul, with mixed success, almost dying in the fighting at one point. Licinia delivers him a son, though, who is immediately associated on the throne as Constantius IV.
441: The Franks are conclusively defeated by Edecius, a general of Hunnic origin.
442: Another child is delivered to Licinia, a daughter named Justina.
445: Valentinian leads an expedition to Britain, and wins several victories.
446: Valentinian III dies at Lindum (Lincoln) after a wound obtained in fighting turns septic. The seven year old Constantius IV is now Emperor of the West, but some at court support the claim of his older cousin Honorius, who is made junior co-Emperor. There is much manoeuvring at Ravenna to achieve control over the boy Emperors.
448: Edecius, the Hunnic general and hero of the Gallic campaigns is assassinated by a group led by Anthemius, an Eastern general and OTL Western Emperor sent by Theodosius II to assert a measure of control over the boys. Anthemius rules supreme as the most important figure in the West, and marries Licinia Eudoxia.
449: Theodosius II dies a year earlier than OTL. Constantius IV, at the age of ten, is now Emperor of the entirety of the Roman world. Honorius, now sixteen, remains in Ravenna, while Constantius and Anthemius leave for Constantinople, where an attempt at placing an in-law of Theodosius on the throne is foiled.

Thoughts?
 
Seems plausible on the face of it.

I assume groups like the Vandals are "Who?" to this timeline by their nonmention. That is, their actions are inconsequential compared to what's laid out here.
 
Based on the thread further down, here's a rough skeleton plan to get the WRE through its very tricky fifth century...

POD: Constantius III lives for another decade.
422: After much threatening and haggling over imperial titles, with the government of the young Theodosius II refusing to acknowledge Constantius as a fellow Emperor, Constantius bribes a Gotho-Hunnic army to invade the Balkans. Theodosius backs down, and Constantius is accepted.
423: The Emperor Honorius dies on schedule.
426: Hunnic attacks on Pannonia are repulsed by John, the OTL rebel against Valentinian III. The young Attila is killed in the fighting.
428-9: Constantius campaigns in Spain against the Vandals, inflicting several serious defeats on them. The Suevic occupation of the far north-west of Iberia is accepted, and the remaining Vandals are settled on the Atlantic coast as Foederati.
430: Frankish incursions in Gaul. The capable young general Flavius Aetius is made Magister Militum with responsibility for the province.
431: Constantius III dies, leaving behind him a twelve year old son, Valentinian III, who has been hugely influenced by his father. Constantius' daughter, a fourteen year old named Honoria is married off by her mother Galla Placidia to John, in an attempt to keep a secure regency. Aetius revolts in Gaul.
432: Aetius is able to persuade the Aquitan Visigoths to join his revolt, and an army sent by John is defeated. Aetius plans to invade Italy.
433: Italy is saved by an Eastern expeditionary force, which routs Aetius' army, destroying the cream of the Visigothic aristocracy with it. The pretender himself is executed. Galla Placidia delivers John a son, Honorius.
432-38: While all this is going on, there are heavy attacks on the Rhine by Franks, which precipitates another small revolt in 436. Several Gallic towns are sacked.
438: The nineteen year old Valentinian weds Licinia Eudoxia, only surviving daughter of his cousin, the Eastern Emperor Theodosius. John is removed in a palace coup, and retires to an Egyptian monastery.
439: Aiming to emulate his father as a soldier Emperor, Valentinian campaigns in Gaul, with mixed success, almost dying in the fighting at one point. Licinia delivers him a son, though, who is immediately associated on the throne as Constantius IV.
441: The Franks are conclusively defeated by Edecius, a general of Hunnic origin.
442: Another child is delivered to Licinia, a daughter named Justina.
445: Valentinian leads an expedition to Britain, and wins several victories.
446: Valentinian III dies at Lindum (Lincoln) after a wound obtained in fighting turns septic. The seven year old Constantius IV is now Emperor of the West, but some at court support the claim of his older cousin Honorius, who is made junior co-Emperor. There is much manoeuvring at Ravenna to achieve control over the boy Emperors.
448: Edecius, the Hunnic general and hero of the Gallic campaigns is assassinated by a group led by Anthemius, an Eastern general and OTL Western Emperor sent by Theodosius II to assert a measure of control over the boys. Anthemius rules supreme as the most important figure in the West, and marries Licinia Eudoxia.
449: Theodosius II dies a year earlier than OTL. Constantius IV, at the age of ten, is now Emperor of the entirety of the Roman world. Honorius, now sixteen, remains in Ravenna, while Constantius and Anthemius leave for Constantinople, where an attempt at placing an in-law of Theodosius on the throne is foiled.

Thoughts?
Love it. Sounds great.
 
The "frankish incursions" thing is a bit odd. After all, they acted quite loyally to the Empire OTL, being too small as a force to hope really pose a real threat then.

Preferring to serve imperial interests, they were trusted of military command in Belgica II.

I mean, you could have some kamikaze frankish chief, but I don't know if he would be really followed.

Furthermore, at this point, every emperor going to campaign himself out of Italy is assured to have some usurper trying to take power using the absence of the regular emperor.

Assassination of a roman general is going to provoke 1) Departure from his army of foederati (Don't forget they represent at least half of the western roman army in the V century) 2)Possible revolt among the provincial-roman troops.

It's all the quick thoughts I've now.
 
I've decided to make this into a (short) proper TL, that'll go up to the early sixth century. Planning a chapter structure thus:

1. The reign of Constantius III
2. A look at the fate of the barbarian invaders of the 410s
3. The revolt of the 430s and the regency of John
4. Valentinian III's brief reign
5. The Senate and the Church in the 440s West
6. The years of crisis 446-454 precipitated by the death of Valentinian III and Theodosius II.
7. The Sueves of Iberia
8. The reign of Honorius II in the West
9. The reign of Constantius IV and his heirs in the East
10. Sasanian Persia
11. The fall of the Theodosian Dynasty
12. The Roman world at the beginning of the sixth century

Critique like that of LSCatilina below would be much appreciated. As this will be a small and focused project, I'd like it to be of very high quality. For sources, I'll be largely relying on Peter Heather, Peter Brown and Averil Cameron, so if AH.commers have any other insights they'd like to share that aren't covered by the above writers, please do so!

I aim to start writing tonight. The title will be "City of God", which I think is fairly apt, though I'm open to other suggestions. :)
 

Deleted member 67076

That is awesome, I cant wait to see the result. Also could you make a short section describing linguistic development in the coming years ,if thats not too much work?
 
I've decided to make this into a (short) proper TL, that'll go up to the early sixth century. Planning a chapter structure thus:

1. The reign of Constantius III
2. A look at the fate of the barbarian invaders of the 410s
3. The revolt of the 430s and the regency of John
4. Valentinian III's brief reign
5. The Senate and the Church in the 440s West
6. The years of crisis 446-454 precipitated by the death of Valentinian III and Theodosius II.
7. The Sueves of Iberia
8. The reign of Honorius II in the West
9. The reign of Constantius IV and his heirs in the East
10. Sasanian Persia
11. The fall of the Theodosian Dynasty
12. The Roman world at the beginning of the sixth century

Critique like that of LSCatilina below would be much appreciated. As this will be a small and focused project, I'd like it to be of very high quality. For sources, I'll be largely relying on Peter Heather, Peter Brown and Averil Cameron, so if AH.commers have any other insights they'd like to share that aren't covered by the above writers, please do so!

I aim to start writing tonight. The title will be "City of God", which I think is fairly apt, though I'm open to other suggestions. :)
I think St. Augustine might have the legal rights to that name:p

Will definitely follow, and attempt to ask questions/critique if it is within my sphere of knowledge.

Edit: Maybe "The Fires of Renewal" or something else focusing on the need to reform and rebuild?
 
Last edited:

Deleted member 67076

Also, you think you could do an update on the average life of a roman citizen at the beginning of the timeline and at the end of it, to see the difference?
 
That is awesome, I cant wait to see the result. Also could you make a short section describing linguistic development in the coming years ,if thats not too much work?

Also, you think you could do an update on the average life of a roman citizen at the beginning of the timeline and at the end of it, to see the difference?

I'm going to be a bad person here, and say right now I won't be doing either.

To try and make up for this rudeness, I will explain why not. :p

The Latin language was held in something of a vice throughout this period, and into the medieval era, due to the fact that the educated upper classes based all of their speech and writing on texts from the Late Republic and early Principate, especially Cicero and Virgil. In a scenario where the Western Empire keeps going up to and beyond 500AD, I can't see any reason why this would change. This is true also for the case of Attic Greek in the East, which remained the language of choice of the elite until the time of Ottoman conquest.

Now, vernacular Latin will continue to evolve throughout the period, of course, but I doubt the linguistic changes would be particularly significant when compared to OTL's vernacular Latin of 500- a few phrases here and there, little more than that. I'm not a linguistic expert, so if you can make some suggestions to me as to why this might not be the case I'd be all ears!

As for average lives, I'll turn that down and say that, quite simply, for the 85%+ of the population that live in the countryside, their lives will change very little when compared to lives of OTL Roman provincials at the beginning of the 420s, which is our POD. A surviving Roman Empire will be an innately conservative state, which taxes and spends in the same way as it had been doing since Diocletian and would do IOTL until the reforms of the Heraclian and Isaurian dynasties in the seventh and eighth centuries. Any changes to the lives of the peasantry will largely be "different to OTL", rather than "different to their forefathers".

I hope you understand, then, why I'll steer clear of these areas- though if you have some very compelling ideas, please do suggest them, I'm open to having my mind changed. :)
 

Deleted member 67076

I'm going to be a bad person here, and say right now I won't be doing either.

To try and make up for this rudeness, I will explain why not. :p

The Latin language was held in something of a vice throughout this period, and into the medieval era, due to the fact that the educated upper classes based all of their speech and writing on texts from the Late Republic and early Principate, especially Cicero and Virgil. In a scenario where the Western Empire keeps going up to and beyond 500AD, I can't see any reason why this would change. This is true also for the case of Attic Greek in the East, which remained the language of choice of the elite until the time of Ottoman conquest.

Now, vernacular Latin will continue to evolve throughout the period, of course, but I doubt the linguistic changes would be particularly significant when compared to OTL's vernacular Latin of 500- a few phrases here and there, little more than that. I'm not a linguistic expert, so if you can make some suggestions to me as to why this might not be the case I'd be all ears!

As for average lives, I'll turn that down and say that, quite simply, for the 85%+ of the population that live in the countryside, their lives will change very little when compared to lives of OTL Roman provincials at the beginning of the 420s, which is our POD. A surviving Roman Empire will be an innately conservative state, which taxes and spends in the same way as it had been doing since Diocletian and would do IOTL until the reforms of the Heraclian and Isaurian dynasties in the seventh and eighth centuries. Any changes to the lives of the peasantry will largely be "different to OTL", rather than "different to their forefathers".

I hope you understand, then, why I'll steer clear of these areas- though if you have some very compelling ideas, please do suggest them, I'm open to having my mind changed. :)

You have good points and I'm not mad in any way. I thought about having a paragraph or 2 on linguistic development and 'day in the life' is because nobody has done those things and I'd thought it be interesting to see.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
It seems good, but I would like to know of the other TL you got going. You aren't putting it on hold, aren't you?

Also, you sure like Romans (whether Greek or Latin) don't you? :p
 
It seems good, but I would like to know of the other TL you got going. You aren't putting it on hold, aren't you?

Also, you sure like Romans (whether Greek or Latin) don't you? :p

Haha, IE is always going on and off hold. It'll never die, but it's definitely a hugely long term project that'll take years before it's complete!

I certainly do- the whole Roman civilisation is just my area of interest, and nothing comes close to it for me. I'm unable to write decent modern political TLs, and I don't have much interest in other areas of history. The Diadochoi a little, perhaps, but nahh. It's all about Rome!
 
Top