Would there be Fascism without World War One?

SaucePlease

Banned
Other movements like Communism and Anarchism were reactions to the Industrial Revolution, but Fascism seemed to be a purely post WW1 nationalist movement in order to unite people on tribal lines, protect against degenerate economics, and expand territory. Outside of the idea that the Klu Klux Klan or Confederates were proto-fascists in a way, I cannot think of another period in history were this can be an international phenomenon outside of between OTL 1919-1939.

So can anyone come up with a nation that would have strong fascist like values without World War One happening. You can use a hypothetical example of any time period, I just put it in this forum because WW1 happened in the 1910s.
 
It all depends on what you mean by....

The Klan were a dangerous movement who might have caused even more damage than they did in otl.

On the other hand even in the US was bitterness about the war a factor in strengthening authoritarianism and racism
 
Speaking for the birthplace of fascism...no, absolutely no, without the massive economic and social disruption of the war something like Fascism will never get near power.
 
Something akin to integralism might emerge in France if they get kicked in the teeth by the Germans without British intervention.
 
Fascism would still rise in some places especially places with a high amount of militarism and nationalism but be different in nature. Fascism was often a youth movement and had roots in pre war groups. It probably be more idealistic and less violent(still violent when they feel targeted but they are not looking for conflict as much as otl). A lot of romanticism and focus on culture. Think volkish groups or even neo pagans at the most extreme. Some will still be heavily into racial science but it’s probably more of a fringe faction in the movement much more so then otl. Fascism is just a updated version of nationalism. People forget nationalism actually started as a liberal movement opposed to traditionalism in Europe. Conservatives only adopted it later on in the 1800 century.

The fascist will likely be your younger right wingers who don’t like certain aspects of conservatism. This could be disagreements over religion, women, social norms, and the political system(right wing youth might be more supportive of republicanism). It’s basically young people and nationalist who like certain aspects of the left and right while disliking others. They want to mix some aspects of the past with the future and present(the old and new together). In conservative regimes that are highly advanced technologically(like Germany) this movement can grow large among the youth who don’t like aspects of the current system. Germany will have one of the largest militaries in the world and this is where the movement could grow the most. Young officers could feel a lot of resentment towards Junkers types when they feel like they earn their place unlike them.

The movement could grow big similar to otl Germany. With growing amount of social democrats and socialist support in Germany the kaiser tries to oppress these groups and let the fascist grow as a counter balance to them. Since they are less radicalized then otl they actually grow faster and bigger due to being more corroborative with the old guard and traditional conservatives. Many moderates and right leaning people from the oppress party flock to the fascist party. The fascist either slowly change the system as the older generation slowly fades away or they do as they want once their big enough to push the conservatives to the side.

The women within the fascist movement might be the most interesting in this situation. They will be less radical and in less need of numbers(many people died in ww1 and birth rates went down. Fascist wanted to encourage women to have a bunch of kids to fix this. Without the war and the possibility of fascist try to appeal to female voters more by saying they support women voting in Germany might change that). Fascist will still believe in eugenics but overpopulation might actually be a issue in Europe without ww1 so the fascist might prefer women to have one or two really healthy kids(they would support abortion for poor people or if the kid was disabled). They would also encourage women to take part in athletics heavily(fascist ideas of fitness was similar to the Spartans. More athletic the woman the more athletic the kid will be). Women could still be discourage from working if jobs for men are getting harder to find but a fascist society would put them on a welfare system or encourage them to work in certain fields. You could also end up with a situation similar to Japan currently where unmarried women are free to do as they please but society expects you to be a housewife once married. Fascist might be able to attract much more women to their ranks then otl.
 

SaucePlease

Banned
Fascism would still rise in some places especially places with a high amount of militarism and nationalism but be different in nature. Fascism was often a youth movement and had roots in pre war groups. It probably be more idealistic and less violent(still violent when they feel targeted but they are not looking for conflict as much as otl). A lot of romanticism and focus on culture. Think volkish groups or even neo pagans at the most extreme. Some will still be heavily into racial science but it’s probably more of a fringe faction in the movement much more so then otl. Fascism is just a updated version of nationalism. People forget nationalism actually started as a liberal movement opposed to traditionalism in Europe. Conservatives only adopted it later on in the 1800 century.

The fascist will likely be your younger right wingers who don’t like certain aspects of conservatism. This could be disagreements over religion, women, social norms, and the political system(right wing youth might be more supportive of republicanism). It’s basically young people and nationalist who like certain aspects of the left and right while disliking others. They want to mix some aspects of the past with the future and present(the old and new together). In conservative regimes that are highly advanced technologically(like Germany) this movement can grow large among the youth who don’t like aspects of the current system. Germany will have one of the largest militaries in the world and this is where the movement could grow the most. Young officers could feel a lot of resentment towards Junkers types when they feel like they earn their place unlike them.

The movement could grow big similar to otl Germany. With growing amount of social democrats and socialist support in Germany the kaiser tries to oppress these groups and let the fascist grow as a counter balance to them. Since they are less radicalized then otl they actually grow faster and bigger due to being more corroborative with the old guard and traditional conservatives. Many moderates and right leaning people from the oppress party flock to the fascist party. The fascist either slowly change the system as the older generation slowly fades away or they do as they want once their big enough to push the conservatives to the side.

The women within the fascist movement might be the most interesting in this situation. They will be less radical and in less need of numbers(many people died in ww1 and birth rates went down. Fascist wanted to encourage women to have a bunch of kids to fix this. Without the war and the possibility of fascist try to appeal to female voters more by saying they support women voting in Germany might change that). Fascist will still believe in eugenics but overpopulation might actually be a issue in Europe without ww1 so the fascist might prefer women to have one or two really healthy kids(they would support abortion for poor people or if the kid was disabled). They would also encourage women to take part in athletics heavily(fascist ideas of fitness was similar to the Spartans. More athletic the woman the more athletic the kid will be). Women could still be discourage from working if jobs for men are getting harder to find but a fascist society would put them on a welfare system or encourage them to work in certain fields. You could also end up with a situation similar to Japan currently where unmarried women are free to do as they please but society expects you to be a housewife once married. Fascist might be able to attract much more women to their ranks then otl.
In this scenario, could a fascist government arise in the Western Hemisphere?
 
Something akin to integralism might emerge in France if they get kicked in the teeth by the Germans without British intervention.

And really, integralism has a way better claim to being proto-fascist than any American movements. The emphasis on unity and hatred of modernity is all there, so just add fetishization of violence as character-building and you're close enough.
 
And really, integralism has a way better claim to being proto-fascist than any American movements. The emphasis on unity and hatred of modernity is all there, so just add fetishization of violence as character-building and you're close enough.
Fascism more rejects certain modern ideas not modernity itself. They still believe in technological advancement and progression but by a different way. A lot of fascist had great obsession with futurism. I would say fascism would vary from two extremes in this pod. The more liberal side would basically be Starship Troopers. The more reactionary side would be Pluto Republic(I would argue that book is proto-fascist in many ways. Original fascist were inspired heavily by the classical world).
 

gurgu

Banned
fascism was born in italy from Benny, and had success thanks to the "vittoria mutilata"( london pact declared null from wilson) and the bad economy of the country after war, Hitler created the nazi party inspired from Benny and used the same reasons to seize power( thus he was elected from the people while Musso marched on Rome) as the humilation of ww1 and the venezuela style economy crisis( iperflantion at rate where with 1 bilion marks you bought 1 kg of potatoes).
To Avoid the rise of fascism is enought to prevent the french from being the usual arrogant pricks( humilate germany after their surrend at 20 km from paris) and have wilson not piss off with the secret deals and his stupid 14 points( it's also a bit of italia fault since they acted like crying babies at the conference, so maybe a more skilled diplomat?).
with no bitter loser and vittoria mutilata both italy and germany won't have a fascist dictatorship thus meaning italy would have a hard time recovering from the depression and germany instead become neutral or in a Bulgarian style trying to regains the lost territories only with diplomacy.
No ww1? impossible it would occur sooner or later anyway, the july crisis was just the last piece of a 500000 puzzle so if not in 1914, then 1915 or in 1916 and so on, also the later it starts the longer will last, everyone was still running to armaments.
 
fascism was born in italy from Benny, and had success thanks to the "vittoria mutilata"( london pact declared null from wilson) and the bad economy of the country after war, Hitler created the nazi party inspired from Benny and used the same reasons to seize power( thus he was elected from the people while Musso marched on Rome) as the humilation of ww1 and the venezuela style economy crisis( iperflantion at rate where with 1 bilion marks you bought 1 kg of potatoes).
To Avoid the rise of fascism is enought to prevent the french from being the usual arrogant pricks( humilate germany after their surrend at 20 km from paris) and have wilson not piss off with the secret deals and his stupid 14 points( it's also a bit of italia fault since they acted like crying babies at the conference, so maybe a more skilled diplomat?).
with no bitter loser and vittoria mutilata both italy and germany won't have a fascist dictatorship thus meaning italy would have a hard time recovering from the depression and germany instead become neutral or in a Bulgarian style trying to regains the lost territories only with diplomacy.
No ww1? impossible it would occur sooner or later anyway, the july crisis was just the last piece of a 500000 puzzle so if not in 1914, then 1915 or in 1916 and so on, also the later it starts the longer will last, everyone was still running to armaments.

Well, frankly if i was the French, i will want to make sure that Germany don't have the possibility to come again near 20km to Paris, expecially with Russia crippled and UK and USA not really sure to come to help France again...and Versailles is a much more lenient treaty than Brest-Litivosk.
Wilson not coming against the secret treaty is almost ASB, the man see them as the core of the impossibility of peace in Europe and the symbol of the old diplomacy and the 14 points were the core of his diplomatic effort; an italian more coordinated diplomatic effort will improve the situation but the core of the myth of the mutilated victory was the fact that not only there were not enough treasure in the planet to be considered a sufficient reward for such loss of men but also that italy has been treated more as a defeated nation than a victorious one.
Italy not being fascist will also mean the nation having a more sane general economic politics and is more probable a quicker recover from the depression
 
Short answer - yes. Plenty of fascist style governments in south America in the 20th century without them getting involved in WW1. All you need is a sense of nationalism, a charismatic populist, a group of people to blame for all your problems and vague promises about making everything great...
 

gurgu

Banned
Well, frankly if i was the French, i will want to make sure that Germany don't have the possibility to come again near 20km to Paris, expecially with Russia crippled and UK and USA not really sure to come to help France again...and Versailles is a much more lenient treaty than Brest-Litivosk.
Wilson not coming against the secret treaty is almost ASB, the man see them as the core of the impossibility of peace in Europe and the symbol of the old diplomacy and the 14 points were the core of his diplomatic effort; an italian more coordinated diplomatic effort will improve the situation but the core of the myth of the mutilated victory was the fact that not only there were not enough treasure in the planet to be considered a sufficient reward for such loss of men but also that italy has been treated more as a defeated nation than a victorious one.
Italy not being fascist will also mean the nation having a more sane general economic politics and is more probable a quicker recover from the depression
i can't agree, because in the beginning everyone admire benny for he's ability to make italy's recovery from the depression so fast.
That's one of the main reasons why italians in the beginning supported him
 

Marc

Donor
For those who might be more than casually interested in this topic, may I suggest reading, The Nature of Fascism, by Roger D. Griffin.
It is perhaps the best book on the topic, to quote from the publisher:

"The Nature of Fascism draws on the history of ideas as well as on political, social and psychological theory to produce a synthesis of ideas and approaches that will be invaluable for students.
Roger Griffin locates the driving force of fascism in a distinctive form of utopian myth, that of the regenerated national community, destined to rise up from the ashes of a decadent society. He lays bare the structural affinity that relates fascism not only to Nazism, but to the many failed fascist movements that surfaced in inter-war Europe and elsewhere, and traces the unabated proliferation of virulent (but thus far successfully marginalized) fascist activism since 1945."

In addition I would argue that there are a number of states nowadays that would qualify as post modern fascist, or at least semi-fascist in nature.
 
The KKK, a early facist 'style' movement, reemerged in its modern form officially in 1915. This was before the bulk of the effects of the Great War had emerged in the US. While the modern KKK had its connection to the southern states KKK movement post 1865, it had its modern iteration in proto form in both the northern and southern states from at least 1900. Ad Hoc and organized local public safety, public morals, societies were emerging with a core agenda of preserving a vision of a orderly and moral society. This appealed deeply to many working class and middle class white protestants, mostly defended from English & Scots ancestors. In 1915 the revived KKK drew on this presenting a social/political agenda of preserving the power of the WASP middle and upper classes & suppressing the perceived growth of Catholicism/Orthodox & pagan regilions, the increasing political and social prinence of non WASP ethinc groups. Germans and other Nordic races were named, as well as Slavics, Mediterranian types, Asians, and about everyone else as groups that needed to be repressed & held to their natural place in various levels below. The racial, & ethnic aspects were somewhat masked by language. The test of "100% Americanism" was the catch phrase of the era.
 
Very probably, yes. Fascism arose as a branch of the "revolutionary movement". In the 1800s, revolutionism was either socialist (Red) or anarchist (Black). The Sociaiist branch was stronger, and became dominated by Marxism. According to Marxist theory, economic forces would make industrial capitalism so oppressive that the "proletariat" would spontaneously rebel.

But by 1900, it was clear that capitalism was increasing everyone's wealth, including the proletariat. The workers were enjoying their new prosperity, and showed no signs of mass rebellion.

Some revolutionary thinkers, such as Georges Sorel, then concluded that for the Revolution to take power, the emotional power of nationalism could be used. The people would support the consolidation of all power in the revolutionary state if they could be persuaded that the state represented the nation, which included them.

Mussolini, who had been a fairly orthodox socialist, grabbed this idea and ran with it for a touchdown. The massive discontent that existed in post-WW I Italy greatly assisted him, but it's not clear that it was a necessary condition.

Fascism flourished in Spain, untouched by WW I; in Hungary, a big loser; and in Romania, a big winner. There was even a fascist movement in Ireland, and in Brazil.

The failure of Marxist theory predated the war. So I think overall something like fascism would have happened without the war.
 
Nationalism and ethnocentrism in their modern form were gaining popularity during the 19th Century, and into the early 20th Cent. Those core trends of facism were not going to reverse absent the Grreat War.
 
You mean the dumb American definition of the word or actual fascism? I can't help you with the first but I don't think you can have the second without the Russian Revolution, it was the catalyst event that led to a dramatic polarization in the political discourse. Without the world War and the economic hardships of the next decades you won't see any fascist movement in any country. That said, the ideas are already there. Fabian socialism is pretty close to fascism, and you would still have a massive divide between a traditionalist authoritarian right and the socialist and anarchyst left in countries like Spain.
 
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