Would the B-36 be a magic bullet against Germany if they defeated the USSR?
- Thread starter Captain Homicide
- Start date
Actually, he probably wasn’t. At least, not to the interviewer. As the linked too article notes:
Basically, that part of Groves justification was probably thrown in for the interview and not what was given to Roosevelt. But neither that nor the fact that Groves was not directly involved (he was indirectly involved, but more as in “the boss of the boss” sorta way) in the tactical methodology for bomb delivery mean that his point is necessarily wrong.
Groves was an engineering type, and had zero experience or expertise in air operations. For nukes, there is absolutely no reason a B-29 strike could not be done at night, on the dark of the moon. You could have a pathfinder mark the target (or not) and the radar on the B-29 was adequate to give you an aim point. For example Berlin has a distinctive series of rivers/canals that would show up on radar and give you a good shot at dropping the bomb right where you want it. With a 20-25KT weapon accuracy is not terribly important when you are attacking a target like Hamburg, or Berlin.
In fact, a target like Hamburg or Kiel with an overwater approach makes target identification easier and less risk for the plane.
In fact, a target like Hamburg or Kiel with an overwater approach makes target identification easier and less risk for the plane.
He apparently has more experience and expertise then you do.
Because it’s not like the Germans built a large and sophisticated night fighter force to deal with the RAFs night bombing campaign or anything...
Now this might suffice if your goal is to randomly kill and dehouse German civilians. But to bring the German war effort to it’s knees, you need to bring the bomb down close enough to the factories to destroy them and for a 20-25 kiloton bomb that’s approximately 2-2.5 kilometers. The RAF found that night time radar bombing, even under air ideal conditions and against ideal targets, tended to miss by much more then that in kilometers. It was a similar story for US bombers when heavy clouds obscured the target and forced them to bomb by radar.
So given a situation in which the Luftwaffe has been beaten down and the B-29 has already been used in Europe for awhile (which I believe would have been the case had it been obvious the war in Europe would have dragged on into 1945 or later), why wouldn’t the US execute it’s atomic strike in daylight and under good weather so as to ensure maximum accuracy and hence maximum assurance on destruction of the target?
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marathag
Banned
That were marginal against Lancasters. B-29s fly higher and faster.
Ju-88 before the G7 won't be doing much intercepting B-29 at 31,000 feet.
Ak-84
Banned
OTL, the Hiroshima attack was fairly spot on, while Nagasaki’s was well off. Which is why nearly 2x as many casualties were suffered in the former, despite being smaller than the later.m
While the Germans had excellent air defences, by early ‘45, theses had been degraded to an point that that resistance was less effective. As seen in Dresden. So not as much of an issue.
While the Germans had excellent air defences, by early ‘45, theses had been degraded to an point that that resistance was less effective. As seen in Dresden. So not as much of an issue.
marathag
Banned
As what probably happened at Nagasaki. I'm doubtful that they found a hole in the cloudcover
History Learner
Banned
I've seen the Luftwaffe interceptors brought up a lot, but I haven't seen a lot about other weapons, in particular Flak. The range of the 88s, for example, were about as high as the service ceiling of a B-29.
So no 'Big One' style operation that destroy the Reich in a swift single strike and win the war overnight? I can't say that this really surprise me
If we're talking a time frame of 1946-1948, then the 2nd generation of german jets would be up and running; the Ta-152 would allready be relegated to 2nd line units at best. This second generation had the performance and weapons to easily take out the B-36. The only way to get the B-36 past the defences would be with massed escorted raids, with the nuke-armed B-36s hidden inside the formation.
Derek Pullem
Donor
Well if the B-36 and the bombs were held back for a Big One style operation combined with a flood of diversionary attacks from Lancasters and B-29 based in Britain then yes it might defeat a Continental wide Nazi Germany. But if the B-36 is used in penny packets to allow time for the Germans to recognise they need an integrated air defense system above 35,000 ft then no it wouldn't.
Redbeard
Banned
You can't bomb Germany into submission if Germany has control of the European continent and its resources. Sure some cities would be leveled and production would be reduced, as in OTL, but in OTL the main factor to break the back of German war effort wasn't the bombing campaign but boots on the ground occupying the factories and/or areas delivering raw materials and labour.
And no, nukes won't change that. For many years there simply won't be enough nukes and when/if enough nukes are available you will only achieve genocide and Europe glowing into eternity. And if/when the Germans get the nuke, there is a good chance they also have an ICBM to carry it.
I agree however that different priorities in the Wallies command could have had the B36, or something similar, in service earlier - but so what? German technology will not follow an OTL line either and German rocket technology would most likely make life suck for hostile aircraft in the air over Europe - Uncle SAM might get a new meaning!
And no, nukes won't change that. For many years there simply won't be enough nukes and when/if enough nukes are available you will only achieve genocide and Europe glowing into eternity. And if/when the Germans get the nuke, there is a good chance they also have an ICBM to carry it.
I agree however that different priorities in the Wallies command could have had the B36, or something similar, in service earlier - but so what? German technology will not follow an OTL line either and German rocket technology would most likely make life suck for hostile aircraft in the air over Europe - Uncle SAM might get a new meaning!
Deleted member 1487
It wasn't the bombing of cities or factories that destroyed the German economy, it was the wrecking of infrastructure. Boots on the ground do it too, but it can be done very expensively via the air.
https://www.amazon.com/Collapse-German-War-Economy-1944-1945/dp/0807858501
http://histclo.com/essay/war/ww2/after/ger/eco/gae-col.html
https://weaponsandwarfare.com/2015/09/01/wwii-mining-the-danube/
http://www.rafcommands.com/forum/showthread.php?21170-Mining-the-Danube-in-1944
marathag
Banned
Maybe you think the Germans could deal with city after city, around four per month, being replaced with green glass craters, and ignore the realization that every single B-29 had to be stopped to prevent that.
I do not.
And given the German nuclear program, they might stumble on a deployable bomb by 1965 or so.
The Farm Hall Transcripts are illustrative on how far off they were
Right.
We've had threads on this question of nuking Germany before.
Remember: We're talking about a Germany that has overrun Europe. This is not a starving, incinerated Japan down to its last throw. Even if/when you could smash down the Luftwaffe air defenses (which will take time - the Germans can now devote a lot of resources to it), you will not be facing a Germany in the situation Japan was in 1945 OTL, where there was genuine hope that one or two bombs might actually force a surrender.
Which leads me to a couple conclusions about atomic bombing Germany in such a situation:
1) Whatever else is true about Groves, it really is hard to think that the Allies will want to take a chance sending in a Silverplate B-29 (or B-36) when there are robust air defenses in place.
2) Considerations of possible loss rate and the need to maximize shock value may dictate husbanding bombs until they are able to deliver to numerous targets simultaneously. Perhaps not as delayed as was the case in Calbear's timeline, but long enough for a decent stockpile, at least. This could have been as many as a couple dozen by the summer of 1946, at a-bomb production rates in place by the previous autumn.
Have mass flights of B36 variants.
One or two nuke bombers. Tankers. Fighter support planes, either motherships for Goblins, or more tankers to refuel fighters.
Edit: forgot to add airborne control.
Basically a primitive AWACS
One or two nuke bombers. Tankers. Fighter support planes, either motherships for Goblins, or more tankers to refuel fighters.
Edit: forgot to add airborne control.
Basically a primitive AWACS
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