Would the B-36 be a magic bullet against Germany if they defeated the USSR?

[Captain Homicide]

If the Reich successfully defeated the USSR and occupied it up to the Urals (like in Fatherland and AANW) would B-36 bombers (as flawed as they were) armed with nuclear bombs really be a plausible solution for the WAllies to win the war against a far more powerful Germany/Wehrmacht if they chose to continue it?

What year would they have enough B-36s to use against a Reich in control of continental Europe and no major fighting in the East to suck up resources?

 

[GDIS Pathe]

the nuke is good enough when massed with bomber swarms

 

[ObssesedNuker]

The B-36 would hardly be "uninterceptable." When actually loaded down with bombs and fuel had a combat ceiling of 35,000 feet in 1947 with a maximum speed of 345 mph. The Ta-152 (in service in 1945) could hit 472 mph at 41,000 feet and topped out at a ceiling of 48,000 feet.

It's far more plausible that the US grinds down the Luftwaffe from bases in Britain and/or North Africa so then it can send in nuke armed B-29s and B-36s to obliterate Germany while being reasonably sure they can make it.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... would B-36 bombers (as flawed as they were) armed with nuclear bombs really be a plausible solution for the WAllies to win the war ...

What year would they have enough B-36s to use against a Reich ...

The B36 might get much of the glory, but so would swarms of piston & jet powered fighters.

But all this assumes the B29 does not get the job done first. OTL the B36 did not enter operational status until 1949. Even under war time pressure its going to be difficult to sort out enough problems a A Bomb delivery Group can be operational before 1947. The B29 was a lot further along the operational capable curve & Even from bases in Africa & Iceland could ht the key industrial centers in the Ruhr & adjacent regions.

...
It's far more plausible that the US grinds down the Luftwaffe from bases in Britain and/or North Africa so then it can send in nuke armed B-29s and B-36s to obliterate Germany while being reasonably sure they can make it.

Indeed. The US continued conventional attacks against Japan along with the Nuke attacks. If the Germans are busy battling with fleets of heavy bombers at 20,000 feet they are not going to suddenly refocus on a couple of planes poking along on another weather or photo recon mission. At least not until they figure out whats really going on. Even with a interception effort its practical to develop fighter tactics to defend the nuke strike.

 

[Deleted member 1487]

The B-36 would hardly be "uninterceptable." When actually loaded down with bombs and fuel had a combat ceiling of 35,000 feet in 1947 with a maximum speed of 345 mph. The Ta-152 (in service in 1945) could hit 472 mph at 41,000 feet and topped out at a ceiling of 48,000 feet.

It's far more plausible that the US grinds down the Luftwaffe from bases in Britain and/or North Africa so then it can send in nuke armed B-29s and B-36s to obliterate Germany while being reasonably sure they can make it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Convair_B-36_Peacemaker#Operational_history

A second aircraft, the YB-36, flew on 4 December 1947. It had a redesigned high-visibility, yet still "greenhouse-like" bubble canopy, heavily framed due to its substantial size, which was later adopted for production, and the engines used on the YB-36 were a good deal more powerful and more efficient. Altogether, the YB-36 was much closer to the production aircraft.

The first of 21 B-36As were delivered in 1948. They were interim airframes, intended for crew training and later conversion. No defensive armament was fitted, since none was ready. Once later models were available, all B-36As were converted to RB-36E reconnaissance models. The first B-36 variant meant for normal operation was the B-36B, delivered beginning in November 1948. This aircraft met all the 1941 requirements, but had serious problems with engine reliability and maintenance (changing the 336 spark plugs was a task dreaded by ground crews) and with the availability of armaments and spare parts. Later models featured more powerful variants of the R-4360 engine, improved radar, and redesigned crew compartments.

The B-36 was not operational until 1949 and even then had big reliability issues.

So no, not in any normal WW2 timeframe would it be a winner, certainly not before the Ta-152 or any improved jet could intercept it.

 

[marathag]

B-36 of 1942 that was set to low priority is not what the B-36 became in 1945.

The XB-36 was to have had two manned turrets,each with dual 37mm cannons forward, and aft to has three remote gun stations, an upper turret with twin .50s, lower turret with quad .50s, and dual 37mm in the tail.
By 1944 it was decided to have eight retractable turrets and a fixed tail turret, each with twin 20mm.

As far as hopes for the Ta-152, it carried 25 gallon tank of liquid NOx, used at rates up to 19.8 pounds a minute, giving almost 420 HP for around 11 minutes

For any time above 30,000 feet on standard Oxygen gear in an unpressurized cockpit, it's not easy on the pilot https://books.google.com/books?id=XkYcBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA48
And
Up to an altitude of 34 000 feet, sea level oxygen equivalent can be attained by increasing the percentage of oxygen in the breathing gas. Above 40 000 feet, positive pressure breathing with 100% oxygen is required. Without positive pressure breathing, even very short exposure to altitudes greater than 43 000 feet leads rapidly to unconsciousness.Aircraft cabin pressurisation systems were developed mainly to prevent hypoxia. Although most modern aircraft are pressurised, there are still a substantial number of civilian and military aircraft that do not have pressurisation systems. Some general aviation aircraft fly as high as 30 000 feet unpressurised. Furthermore, very high altitudes are reached for record-setting attempts in gliders and parachuting from balloons. Oxygen equipment for hypoxia protection for such aircraft ranges from simple nasal cannulas at lower altitudes to highly sophisticated regulators and masks at the higher levels
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(03)15059-3/fulltext

So color me skeptical on the average Franz or Hans being able to jump into a Ta-152 and spend an extended amount of time above 34,000 feet without bad effects.
There's a reason those setting altitude records in the '30s at those altitudes had pressure suits and special breathing gear, besides being -50 to -70°F

 

[Deleted member 1487]

B-36 of 1942 that was set to low priority is not what the B-36 became in 1945.

The XB-36 was to have had two manned turrets,each with dual 37mm cannons forward, and aft to has three remote gun stations, an upper turret with twin .50s, lower turret with quad .50s, and dual 37mm in the tail.
By 1944 it was decided to have eight retractable turrets and a fixed tail turret, each with twin 20mm.

As far as hopes for the Ta-152, it carried 25 gallon tank of liquid NOx, used at rates up to 19.8 pounds a minute, giving almost 420 HP for around 11 minutes

For any time above 30,000 feet on standard Oxygen gear in an unpressurized cockpit, it's not easy on the pilot https://books.google.com/books?id=XkYcBQAAQBAJ&pg=PA48
And
Up to an altitude of 34 000 feet, sea level oxygen equivalent can be attained by increasing the percentage of oxygen in the breathing gas. Above 40 000 feet, positive pressure breathing with 100% oxygen is required. Without positive pressure breathing, even very short exposure to altitudes greater than 43 000 feet leads rapidly to unconsciousness.Aircraft cabin pressurisation systems were developed mainly to prevent hypoxia. Although most modern aircraft are pressurised, there are still a substantial number of civilian and military aircraft that do not have pressurisation systems. Some general aviation aircraft fly as high as 30 000 feet unpressurised. Furthermore, very high altitudes are reached for record-setting attempts in gliders and parachuting from balloons. Oxygen equipment for hypoxia protection for such aircraft ranges from simple nasal cannulas at lower altitudes to highly sophisticated regulators and masks at the higher levels
http://www.thelancet.com/journals/lancet/article/PIIS0140-6736(03)15059-3/fulltext

So color me skeptical on the average Franz or Hans being able to jump into a Ta-152 and spend an extended amount of time above 34,000 feet without bad effects.
There's a reason those setting altitude records in the '30s at those altitudes had pressure suits and special breathing gear, besides being -50 to -70°F

Seeing as it wouldn't be operational until 1950 with those specs and would probably quite a bit slower thanks to all the extra firepower, it would be killable. Also the Ta-152 was designed as a pressurized fighter, not even the first German aircraft with the gear:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Ta_152

High-altitude features[edit]
To reach higher altitudes, a pressurized cockpit was added to the H models. The canopy was sealed via a circular tube filled with rubber foam which was inflated by a compressed air bottle, while the engine compartment was also sealed from the cockpit with a rubber foam ring. A Knorr 300/10 air compressor provided the pressure, maintaining the cockpit at 0.36 atmospheres (5.29 psi) above 8,000 m (26,250 ft). To prevent fogging, the windscreen was of a double-glazed style with a 6 mm (.236 in) thick outer pane and a 3 mm (.118 in) inner pane with a 6 mm (.24 in) gap. The gap was fitted with several silica gel capsules to absorb any moisture forming between the panes.[4]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Junkers_Ju_49

The Junkers Ju 49 was a German aircraft designed to investigate high-altitude flight and the techniques of cabin pressurization. It was the world's second working pressurized aircraft, following the Engineering Division USD-9Awhich first flew in the United States in 1921.[1] By 1935, it was flying regularly to around 12,500 m (41,000 ft).

By 1949-50 jet designs would be much advanced too, which would be a serious issue for any unescorted intercontinental bombers.

Also I think Carl is right, the B-29 is the bigger threat since Britain is still a factor.

 

[marathag]

Seeing as it wouldn't be operational until 1950 with those specs and would probably quite a bit slower thanks to all the extra firepower, it would be killable. Also the Ta-152 was designed as a pressurized fighter, not even the first German aircraft with the gear:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Ta_152

As the B-36 had bugs, so did the Ta-152

By October 1944, the war was going very badly for Germany, and the RLM pushed Focke-Wulf to quickly get the Ta 152 into production. As a result, several Ta 152 prototypes crashed early into the test program. It was found that critical systems were lacking sufficient quality control. Problems arose with superchargers, pressurized cockpits leaked, the engine cooling system was unreliable at best due in part to unreliable oil temperature monitoring, and in several instances the landing gear failed to properly retract. A total of up to 20 pre-production Ta 152 H-0s were delivered from November 1944 to Erprobungskommando Ta 152 to service test the aircraft. It was reported that test pilots were able to conduct a mere 31 hours of flight tests before full production started. By the end of January 1945, only 50 hours or so had been completed.

Running a lot of NOx at very high altitude on a barely tested craft, whatever could go wrong?

 

[ObssesedNuker]

As the B-36 had bugs, so did the Ta-152

Difference being the Ta-152 had worked through it’s bugs by the Spring of ‘45 enough to be regarded as ready for service and would have another two-three years to see further development before it encounters the B-36 while the B-36 wouldn’t even fly for the first time until 1946.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

... while the B-36 wouldn’t even fly for the first time until 1946.

Need to look at how the priority change affected this. Were the USSR to collapse in 1942 a lot of the US plans underway would not have been sidelined as they were from latter 1942 onwards.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Need to look at how the priority change affected this. Were the USSR to collapse in 1942 a lot of the US plans underway would not have been sidelined as they were from latter 1942 onwards.

I can see some acceleration of the program, but there are limits to what throwing more money will do and I can’t see it accelerating things more then a year. That still means that the first B-36 flight occurs roughly a few months after the Ta-152 is entering operational service and another two years pass before the ‘36 actually see’s operational service. Not to mention the jet pods were also directly borrowed from the B-47 program, which didn't even start until late 1945. So regardless of whether the prop engined B-36 comes in a little earlier than usual, it'll still have to wait until 1949 for its jets.

By then, the ‘29s are liable to have done the nuking job anyways after the P-51s took the extra time to grind down the Luftwaffe.

 

[Captain Homicide]

By then, the ‘29s are liable to have done the nuking job anyways after the P-51s took the extra time to grind down the Luftwaffe.

What year do you expect B-29s to successfully nuke Germany considering how powerful the Luftwaffe and their anti air defenses would be with no Eastern Front?

 

[ObssesedNuker]

What year do you expect B-29s to successfully nuke Germany considering how powerful the Luftwaffe and their anti air defenses would be with no Eastern Front?

Well, it would be a combination of nukes, conventional air attack, and bloody ground invasion... but Germany probably goes down right as the B-36 is getting up to operational service. The ‘36 might even see some combat use, but it wouldn’t be what decides things.

 

[Carl Schwamberger]

What year do you expect B-29s to successfully nuke Germany considering how powerful the Luftwaffe and their anti air defenses would be with no Eastern Front?

How powerful do you think they would be?

 

[Captain Homicide]

How powerful do you think they would be?

Powerful enough that the Allied strategic bombing campaign would take far longer to establish air supremacy than it did IOTL in order for an amphibious landing to be pulled off successfully.

 

[viperjock]

OTL the B-29 program and the Manhattan Project were basically running together. It will be too easy to build Silverplate B-29s straight from the factory just like OTL. In this timeline I could see some of the features of the Silverplates being incorporated into B-29 models. With Britain still in the war there is no need to push a transatlantic bomber. You just build more B-29s to fly from England. There is also no reason why B-17s and B-24s are not still in frontline service until being replaced by Superforts.
In this scenario has there still been a Pacific war that ends with the Japanese being nuked and knocked out of the war first? I would say that would be more likely (End the war against Japan and devote all resources to cracking Festung Europa). In that case then the Luftwaffe is on guard for an atomic attack.
The major question is how hard pressed is the Luftwaffe is this ATL in defending the Reich? Piston engine fighters might still be considered good enough to fight the Allies. Jets might be restricted to flying over Germany itself to keep one from falling into Allied hands. Also how aggressive is the Luftwaffe against English airfields? Are they sending raids across the channel to take out bombers on the ground or are they staying on the defensive over the continent?

 

[Mote]

What year do you expect B-29s to successfully nuke Germany considering how powerful the Luftwaffe and their anti air defenses would be with no Eastern Front?

1945. It wouldn't be war ending, but the B-29 would be capable of penetrating and nuking Germany, especially if simply on the periphery, as soon as the bomb is available. No one, much less the Nazis, is capable of reliably intercepting B-29 raids such as to ensure denial of nuclear weapons, especially supported by EW.

 

[Asp]

The B-36 would hardly be "uninterceptable." When actually loaded down with bombs and fuel had a combat ceiling of 35,000 feet in 1947 with a maximum speed of 345 mph. The Ta-152 (in service in 1945) could hit 472 mph at 41,000 feet and topped out at a ceiling of 48,000 feet.

It's far more plausible that the US grinds down the Luftwaffe from bases in Britain and/or North Africa so then it can send in nuke armed B-29s and B-36s to obliterate Germany while being reasonably sure they can make it.

Wouldn't work for the same reason Germany couldn't win the Battle of Britain. They have a fundamental disadvantage in operating at range and over enemy territory, which means all their planes and pilots that get lost are lost for good while Germany could recover many airframes and crew. Large areas can't be touched by bombers or covered by fighters. Axis pilot quality remains higher without the OTL late war desperation from high casualties. The WAllies also have to face German SAMs and AAA while the Germans don't have to face the WAllies', which drives casualties in a certain direction. Assuming they defeat the USSR by not engaging in North Africa a la AANW to get to this point, they also save most of the 8,000 aircraft they lost in the desert and free up the aircraft they were using on the Eastern Front. And they can ramp up production with their new resources and without having to deal with the drains of the land campaign in the USSR (and of course in the West, no D-Day).

The Wallies can't beat that.

 

[ObssesedNuker]

Wouldn't work for the same reason Germany couldn't win the Battle of Britain. They have a fundamental disadvantage in operating at range and over enemy territory, which means all their planes and pilots that get lost are lost for good while Germany could recover many airframes and crew. Large areas can't be touched by bombers or covered by fighters. Axis pilot quality remains higher without the OTL late war desperation from high casualties. The WAllies also have to face German SAMs and AAA while the Germans don't have to face the WAllies', which drives casualties in a certain direction. Assuming they defeat the USSR by not engaging in North Africa a la AANW to get to this point, they also save most of the 8,000 aircraft they lost in the desert and free up the aircraft they were using on the Eastern Front. And they can ramp up production with their new resources and without having to deal with the drains of the land campaign in the USSR (and of course in the West, no D-Day).

The Wallies can't beat that.

Yes, they can. They did OTL, as the historical destruction of the Luftwaffe mainly happened over German territory with the WAllies on the offensive. It was this offensive that caused the very high casualties and decline in pilot quality that you mentioned. And the devastated East will continue to be more of a economic drain in overall resources then a boon for the foreseeable future, military victory over the USSR won’t change that. In terms of staving off economic collapse from overmobilization, it just kicks the can down the road a bit further. While it’s vast reaches may also be out of reach, Germany itself still isn’t and that’s where all the industry that actually matters to the German war machine is.

The Luftwaffe can make a better fight then they did OTL, but they’ll still lose the resulting war of attrition in the end. An air force is above all a system and as a system the Luftwaffe wasn’t built for a war of attrition like the USAAC, RAF, or VVS were. That specifically isn’t going to change just because the Luftwaffe managed to knock out the USSR. Similarly, the Heer without a ongoing war in the East is certainly more formidable but it still can’t really defeat compete the sort of army the US’s vastly superior resources can equip and train in the long run. The only real question is that of political will on the WAllies side on being willing to pay the blood price.

 

[Athelstane]

It's far more plausible that the US grinds down the Luftwaffe from bases in Britain and/or North Africa so then it can send in nuke armed B-29s and B-36s to obliterate Germany while being reasonably sure they can make it.

And, not least, minimize the chances that the Germans might bring down one of the bombers and recover a nuke, even in damaged form.

There was an interview with Leslie Groves at one point, where he pointed out the difficulties of introducing the B-29 to the European theater:

GROVES: At the conference that Secretary Stimson and myself had with President Roosevelt shortly before his departure, I believe it was December 30th or 31st of 1944, President Roosevelt was quite disturbed over the Battle of the Bulge and he asked me at that time whether I could bomb Germany as well as Japan. The plan had always been to bomb Japan because we thought the war in Germany was pretty apt to be over in the first place and in the second place the Japanese building construction was much more easily damaged by a bomb of this character than that in Germany. I urged President Roosevelt that it would be very difficult for various reasons.

The main one was that the Germans had quite strong aerial defense. They made a practice, as every nation does, that when a new plane came into the combat area, that they would run any risk that they could to bring such a plane down so that they could examine it and see what new ideas had come in so that they could make improvements and also would know the characteristics of the plane so that they could prepare a better defense against it. We had no B-29’s in Europe. If we had sent over a small squadron or group as we did against Japan of this type, everyone of them would have been brought down on the first trip to Germany. If they hadn’t been, it would have been through no lack of effort on the part of the Germans.

So yeah, the Allies would want to put a heavy dent in German air defenses before risking nuke-laden bombers over Germany. Even if they managed to build up a stockpile.